115 replies to this topic

[chrismk]

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 09:10 AM, said:

This is what I don't get - what makes people think that suddenly with less events we'll get an influx of huge main cast guests? We get them where we can, and they're tricky enough to get NOW, without halving the number of events. No one has ever said it's a financial issue that they can't get these guests.

Two things, firstly, as I've said, you won't get more guests in total if you run less events, but you might get more guests PER EVENT, meaning more money through the doors.

Secondly, of course you can't get some guests for financial reasons! If a guest asks for £250K (as a random example), then you can't get them, as you have no way of recouping the money.

Are you familiar with the term 'loss leader'? This is where you sell something at a loss, on the understanding that knock on sales will make up for the loss. Supermarkets do it in their promotions, so you come in to buy something extra cheap and then do teh rest of your shopping there. Well it can apply to headline guests as well. For example

Imagine 6 headline guests, all charging the same amount, all of whom will attract 10K guaranteed unique attendees through the door. If you run 3 events, you will get 20K attendees guarantees at each event. Run two events and you get 30K guaranteed attendees. The advantage of the second model, is that the secondary sales are likely to be higher (secondary sales being attendees buying autographs from other, smaller guests). Also, the overhead costs are way smaller (in terms of advertising, venue, crewing, etc).

I realise this example is hugely simplistic, but it does illustrate that sometimes, less is more!

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 09:59 AM, said:

TerraHawk, on Feb 1 2011, 09:47 AM, said:

But you were also appealing to the fan community. The fan community that knew that the NFI did screenings with the main cast that were better value than that; all those flocking fans had already met two of the three main cast, and you then gave them the same two, rather than the third. Your flock here were saying book him and they'd go, but you didn't.

Incidentally those two were Dr Who guests as well - I got their autos two or three times each for that at LFCC, rather than start on another show.

See, I don't agree with this. If you take into account things like that, then surely you need to think about stage doors, premieres, store signings etc. They are "better value" because you get to meet people for free! And if an event organiser starts thinking about all of that, then surely they'd not get many 'big guests' because they'd tend to be the ones that would go to such things.

And yet I've seen time and again that people are willing to go to signing events and conventions for the (mostly) guaranteed opportunity to get an autograph/photo with someone. It's a completely different situation, and I don't think they can think "oh there's a screening somewhere so we won't bother" because there's often many willing to do both, or that don't WANT to go to things like that.

I realise you're trying to put things into context but if we considered all of those types of things as reasons not to run events or get guests then I'm not quite sure we'd have much left.

No, the event he is referring to, was like a mini BH convention, where there was a screening, a talk by the cast and the opportunity for autographs and pictures for free. The only differences between it and an ME event was a) the organisation at an ME event is better it was only 1 day, not two and c) it was around £8

chrismk, on Feb 1 2011, 11:15 AM, said:

edited by QS because of broken quotes

Can I just thank you for taking the time and effort to fix that mess, it's greatly appreciated, cheers!  

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 11:37 AM, said:

It is the logistics I'm referring to - yes I'm aware of the similar elements, but also why they're possible to do on a far bigger scale over there. It's not possible to have full casts of TV and movies attend over here for a panel and a short autograph session. Not on the level that SDCC can do it, and for good reason. At least that's what I believe.

Jason can fly over numerous people to do lengthy autograph sessions, photo shoots, and perhaps a panel, but financially that's far different from what the core of SDCC is.

That's very true, logistics is a major problem for US Tv shows and films.... but there's no reason why LFCC couldn't showcase UK shows and films? Hell, BBC America has a massive pressence at SDCC.

I'm positive Jason HAS tried to do the same thing with BBC/Sky/ITV, but for whatever reason, they've never gone for it. (although I am aware that Hot Fuzz DID promote at Manchester Gmex and Heroes were clearly promoting at LFCC).

In my mind, it's this promotion that is key and there are a couple of things needed for it. 1) contacts within the industry 2) the LFCC presence and reputation needs increasing 3) pressure needs putting on TV studios to go there (which is soemthing we COULD help with!)

[Lisa090982]

My only gripe really is that I don't really understand the logic sometimes with the timing of the events

This doesn't really apply to the bigger events such as EMS/LFCC/CM etc but for example, Eternal Twilight and Roadhouse are both scheduled when the film/tv shows they are for are still very much in production and when you guys announced Roadhouse I immediately thought to myself 'are they mad, SPN and TVD are in production then' and its been very well publicised that Breaking Dawn was due to finish in March for a long time also.

I think if these events were scheduled at a time where they were not in production, getting guests would be slightly easier.

Jason said himself in the ET6 section that talking to agents has been easier because they aren't in production for the film

Obviously I know these actors could and do get other projects of course but surely running an event would be much easier if it was during a scheduled break in filming?

[etmuse]

Lisa090982, on Feb 1 2011, 11:49 AM, said:

Obviously I know these actors could and do get other projects of course but surely running an event would be much easier if it was during a scheduled break in filming?

The problem there comes in that, especially for US tv shows, they're all going to have their scheduled breaks in filming at around the same time. Which would mean cramming ALL of the events into a short space of time. I almost guarantee that you're just not going to get as many attendees that way, as it's easier to spread the cost of events out across the year.

[DavidB]

Plus it doesn't guarantee that they'll be free - after all, many of them choose to pursue other projects during that time i.e. movies for TV stars and whatnot.

And then it comes down to other areas of availability like when is the venue available etc.

It's all very complicated and I don't think there's any 'ideal' time.

[chrismk]

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 12:49 PM, said:

Plus it doesn't guarantee that they'll be free - after all, many of them choose to pursue other projects during that time i.e. movies for TV stars and whatnot.

And then it comes down to other areas of availability like when is the venue available etc.

It's all very complicated and I don't think there's any 'ideal' time.

Surely it's an ideal time for a signing event? Even if many of the TV stars do other projects, there's still a significant number with no work over that period.

[wabit]

I prefer weekend con's and not signing events personally. I just came back yesterday from one and although it was a small group it was one of the best I've been to!  So sometimes quantity does not give the quality it all depends on the guest's and attendee's.  I go to MK if there is anyone I want to see same as LFCC but would rather save my money for the weekend con's as I think they give you best value for money. I do think there is way to many event's going on at the moment, so I'm picking the one's that have a guest I want to see while I can afford it.  As for locations I think of it as if you really want to meet someone you have to travel to the location they are at.  Yes it can be expensive and for those who live abroad must have one hell of a time choosing which one to go to. I've been to Vancouver as I wanted to see the set's and loved it, cost a fortune but it's something I really wanted to do and I'm glad I did as now the set's are gone.
I do think that SM are doing too many event's but that's up to them, if they think they can keep going then I suppose we'll find out soon enough! That's my ten pence worth so will see some of you at 7.6 in May.

[Mrs Hat]

I often think that there should be more events down south but I know sometimes it's just not possible.

I'm unable to attend MK as it's just too far for me and I'm not able to justify the weekend away

My first con was MK though in 2009 so I'm glad it still happens.

London isn't such a big issue for me as it's only an hour and a half away from me, although I don't go to every one because theres not always people I want to see

[DavidB]

chrismk, on Feb 1 2011, 12:54 PM, said:

Surely it's an ideal time for a signing event? Even if many of the TV stars do other projects, there's still a significant number with no work over that period.

In theory, yes; however taking all the other factors into account as well, it may not end up as simple as that. It's certainly a good starting point.

[TerraHawk]

showmasters, on Feb 1 2011, 02:23 AM, said:

one last very important thing to talk about , the world is in a very hard place , recession is here and its hard on everything and everyone so for us to find it hard is not a surprise is it , so maybe we do ask for help from the fans of what we do , i do not think thats bad of us i think its smart as we can save wasting money on ads when the fans that like what we do help us to make the money that come is go further and it means we get more guests or have more money to spend on bigger names so i do not feel i should stop asking for help to promote in fact i think we should be asking more and if people like what we do they should help get the word out .

this is what makes us different to other events we are all fans and run by fans and the people that work hard at these events are all fans to , to whats the difference from all of you to all of us .

too tall meet his wife in the line at C4 now he looks after the crew and helps us run these events , you the fans are us the promotors in a way , you may not have looked at it this way but i know the crew feel this way as we are all a team and make these event happen as a group , we even spend New Years together partying for 5 days together , so its more than just running events that work or do not work its a group of fans trying something new sometimes , giving it a go

The problem is you are asking fans to promote on netural territory, where we are free to mention rivals, and air criticism and moan when things go wrong. If we are the promoters are we expected to field the flak when thing go amiss?

Jason, you won't like me saying this - and you won't believe it - you might a small friends and family fan run business but you do have to remind people of that. Occasionally compared to others you seem like the big corporate bully. Mainly because you do get so many nigh on impossible guests and run so many events. You have the money to get the guests. Most of the events I do are fan run. They don't have that sort of money behind them.

Even the names of your companies imply

we are the Show Masters, we run Massive Events - it doesn't suggest a small fanled operation.


Just ask Derek and Paul about your reputation on some of the larger Dr Who forums. As a loyal Tenth Planet customer almost as long as there's been a Tenth Planet, it pains me that their events don't do as well as they used to. Other fan run organisations have come along - using a similar pricing structure to what Tenth Planet used to -  and done just as well. Since TP adopted your pricing structure their once superb reputation has suffered, attendance has fallen. They aren't the value for money they used to be.

Just look at Bad Wolf. Last year you took a more active role - promising to make it the 'biggest, must attend event' and  making it new series only, then 'bowing to fan pressure' at the 11th hour make it mixed again. What was the first thing I said when you took over - and hosted the webpage yourself? I said don't ruin it. ( I can't remember if you edited me, or just told me to wtach it) Did people rush to buy tickets? nope. You stuck a photo of Chris, David and Matt up so some here had the crazy notion they might be in reach. A tad optimistic, most were obviously waiting for them before booking.

We didn't exactly fill the Hilton. Real pity, I've got attached to it now too.

I hope it makes a triumphant return next year, personally my attendance depends on exactly where. If it's Northampton, no chance.

But if you want that reputation to improve, you've really got to stop trying to sink the smaller opposition. Iintended or not, it doesn't go unnoticed. Both sides suffer.

Where is the Invasion page on this forum incidentally? Won't any of the flock want to meet Rodney Bewes or Jacqueline Pearce? It's in 4 weeks!

Edited by TerraHawk, 01 February 2011 - 01:22 PM.

[Indiana]

I personally think, that if Jason himself is confident that he can run all of the shows successfully, then why not go for it? If a show is proving itself a failure he has the sense to know when that is, and drop it if necessary.

Sure we may not attend every show on offer, but for every show that I personally don't attend, I know that other people will. I'm just grateful that Showmasters are there to provide the shows that I do want to attend (and we attend regularly).

If anything I wish there were more of the smaller, collector based shows, on earlier in the year at smaller venues. I used to love attending Jason's earlier, pre-collectormania, shows at Cheshunt.

This past weekend we were looking for just this type of show, and there were none about, and it's a long way to go until May. So that's my suggestion - could you guys consider a regular smaller scale collectors show, with no guests?

Also, although I love seeing the Star Wars guests at the bigger shows, how about a return of the Empire Days format, with a pure Star Wars focus? Again at a smaller venue, and with Star Wars only traders? I remember the first Showmasters/Falcon Society event that I ever attended was the one at the Watford Colliseum in 1996, and it's still one of the best UK Star Wars events that I have been to. It had such a great atmosphere, and I'd like a return to those days.

[chrismk]

Mrs Hat, on Feb 1 2011, 01:01 PM, said:

I often think that there should be more events down south but I know sometimes it's just not possible.

I'm unable to attend MK as it's just too far for me and I'm not able to justify the weekend away

My first con was MK though in 2009 so I'm glad it still happens.

London isn't such a big issue for me as it's only an hour and a half away from me, although I don't go to every one because theres not always people I want to see

Just out of curiousity, would you go to an MK convention if there was say 4 or 5 big guests that you really wanted to meet, or is the cost permanently prohibitive?

[etmuse]

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 01:02 PM, said:

chrismk, on Feb 1 2011, 12:54 PM, said:

Surely it's an ideal time for a signing event? Even if many of the TV stars do other projects, there's still a significant number with no work over that period.

In theory, yes; however taking all the other factors into account as well, it may not end up as simple as that. It's certainly a good starting point.

A lot of the US tv shows finish filming for the summer in early-mid May. Thus making CM MK already IN that 'ideal signing event' time...

[chrismk]

wabit, on Feb 1 2011, 12:58 PM, said:

I prefer weekend con's and not signing events personally. I just came back yesterday from one and although it was a small group it was one of the best I've been to!  So sometimes quantity does not give the quality it all depends on the guest's and attendee's.  I go to MK if there is anyone I want to see same as LFCC but would rather save my money for the weekend con's as I think they give you best value for money. I do think there is way to many event's going on at the moment, so I'm picking the one's that have a guest I want to see while I can afford it.  As for locations I think of it as if you really want to meet someone you have to travel to the location they are at.  Yes it can be expensive and for those who live abroad must have one hell of a time choosing which one to go to. I've been to Vancouver as I wanted to see the set's and loved it, cost a fortune but it's something I really wanted to do and I'm glad I did as now the set's are gone.
I do think that SM are doing too many event's but that's up to them, if they think they can keep going then I suppose we'll find out soon enough! That's my ten pence worth so will see some of you at 7.6 in May.

But often those small events are not financially viable, especially if it is for a current show and the guests are not prepared to commit until a few weeks before the event.

I do agree with you regarding value for money, but at a weekend convention, you only get value for money if the guests are reasonable. You also take a bigger risk at a weekend convention, as the money is generally larger up front and non refundable, unless it get cancelled, even if the guests you want to see cancel.

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 01:02 PM, said:

chrismk, on Feb 1 2011, 12:54 PM, said:

Surely it's an ideal time for a signing event? Even if many of the TV stars do other projects, there's still a significant number with no work over that period.

In theory, yes; however taking all the other factors into account as well, it may not end up as simple as that. It's certainly a good starting point.

That's exactly it, it's a starting point and it's a better starting point than February or March, when many US shows are still filming.

[Zagreus]

My own personal opinion -
Signing events are my own personal favourites.  So many of the conventions have not had a strong enough line-up to bring me down from Scotland.  They simply do not have enough big or rare names to make it worth my while.  The upcoming Chevron and Middle Earth conventions are good examples.  Chevron has one big name, but Teryl has been to signing events before, and I do not even remember from Stargate the other actor going.  Middle Earth has both people from previous signing events and others who are too minor for me.  I'd LOVE to attend both, but Massive Events conventions seem to be aimed at people who are die-hard fans who will meet any actor from it, or those who live in the surrounding areas.  Keeping that in mind, I feel it's unfair getting such major actors like Jodelle Ferland for a convention when she has such a varied following who know her from other performances.  There are plenty of actors I would gladly have paid to meet at signing events who have only been to conventions (Naoko Mori being a prime example).

I have been going down to England for Collectormanias since 2005, and as a result, the recent Glasgow shows have not been too enticing.  Too many repeat guests and limited stalls.  I don't foresee these shows ever being as big as the England ones, and not taking up more than a couple of hours of my time at most.  So, while I am not going to complain about a Collectormania on my own doorstep, it is the England ones that I will forever travel to and look forward too.  I am happy going to those big shows.  They may be at the other end of the country, but London and MK are easy to get to.  Manchester too.

From a personal perspective then, I would prefer the attention from the conventions being diverted into the big shows in London and MK.  After all, from a convention line-up of 5 or 6 it's always going to be a gamble as to whether it will be worth your while going, and if the actors who are your reasons for going will cancel from the show.  Whereas the massive line-ups of London and MK will, for the most part, always have something to entice.  That's the main thing to remember here - the attendees have a very similar, braod taste in media (sci-fi, fantasy, cult), so the guests are always going to tempt someone.  Why pidgeon-hole them to one convention / role?

[DavidB]

I understand your point about guests going to specific cons when they're known for a wide body of work, however it's not always as simple as "ok I'm willing to do absolutely any event you want me to do, so put me wherever and I'll keep my diary free for the next year!" .. so surely it's better for them to get guests when they can, no?

What about those who are unsure about the 'signing event' experience, and so do 'conventions' first to get a feel for it, and be more relaxed around like-minded fans and some of their cast friends?

Sometimes it's a perfect way to get them for signing events in the end.

[Zagreus]

I was giving my personal opinions, as Jason asked.  So there's no need to question how valid they may or may not be.  They were not put down to enter into a debate with you.  So please do not speak on Jason's behalf.  And there is also no point in you rolling out this familiar counter-argument, when you have nothing to back it up with.  There is NOTHING to indicate your argument is how actors feel, so you cannot speak on their behalf either.

Edited by Zagreus, 01 February 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[DavidB]

Apologies - everyone else seemed happy enough to discuss, so I assumed that's what this topic was for.

I thought you might be interested to know that actually there have been a few guests that were extremely unsure about attending signing events before they did a convention, and in fact it was their good experiences there that finally convinced them to do so. Without conventions, we would likely never have seen some of the guests we've had at signing events.

But sorry if you saw that as irrelevant

[Zagreus]

And was this Jodelle Ferland and Naoko Mori?  If not, then it is irrelevant.  Just because you may have heard something from somewhere about a few guests, doesn't make the argument all-inclusive and covering every situation and guest.

Edited by Zagreus, 01 February 2011 - 03:07 PM.

[rosie727]

IMO there are never too many cons, i have to travel a fair distance, but i decide which guests i wanna see more and work it out from there.

Edited by rosie727, 01 February 2011 - 03:02 PM.

[DavidB]

Zagreus, on Feb 1 2011, 02:57 PM, said:

And was this Jodelle Ferland and Naoko Mori?

I didn't say that. I'm not entirely sure why you're being so hostile. I was addressing your point that you suggested major stars should not go to specific conventions. Sorry if I've irked you by replying, and I'm not "talking on behalf of Jason" - however there HAVE been first time signers that have attended conventions and been convinced by that to attend signing events after.

I was simply illustrating that it can be a very useful process, and rather than actually taking them away from you, they're potentially increasing the possibility.