postal strike!

[MikeDonovan]

I have several issues with this, but one of the main ones is that postal workers, and transport workers, are in an extremely privileged position when it comes to exerting their influence over their respective organizations.

 

I don't care what anyone says, but postal workers get paid a salary that is, frankly, out of sync with the amount of skill required to do the job. There are many far more highly skilled jobs that don't pay anything like the salary of a postal worker. Examples? A nurse. All nurses will have at least a Degree, and many will have Masters. The job involves lifelong training. It deals with situations where lives are at stake. However, Nurses don't strike - generally because if they did, people would die. Postal workers are in many cases not required to have any particular skills (I'm sorry, but it's true). They also have the luxury of striking without any apparent consequences, effectively holding the whole country to ransom until their (frankly, unreasonable) demands are met.

 

Imagine what would happen if the Metropolitan Police staged a similar walkout.

 

Postal workers (and train drivers) already get paid way more than an open market would allow. Their benefits add even more to that package. If I had the final decision (and if legislation allowed me to) at this point I would be issuing an ultimatum - either take what you've been offered, or don't bother coming back to work. I would never allow the organization to be held to ransom, and this is the key mistake that Royal Mail are making. If RM is to survive long in the 21st century, postal workers have to start dragging their mentalities out of the 70s, and start accepting that they are expected to perform. Idiotic practices like earning overtime in standard hours are just perpetuating this anachronistic environment where people seem to believe that the world owes them a good living for doing relatively little, and that they are un-accountable for their performance.

 

Whatever victories the strikers earn will be purely pyhrric. Royal Mail WILL be privatized, sooner rather than later at this rate, and the private sector absolutely will not allow this behaviour. For an example of what's going to happen to Royal Mail over the next 15 years, look at BT.

 

I'm afraid it's time to grow up and start appreciating that if you want more money, you need to perform. Postal workers have for too long been existing in an environment that rewards mediocrity. This is going to change, and postal workers need to change with it.

 

PS : - Dr Evil - please don't take this personally - it's not aimed at you.

Edited October 11, 2007 by MikeDonovan

[Psychosis]

How immature. I see now why you think this is okay.

 

 

perhaps if you changed the record rather than repeating yourself with the same stuff...its clear you don't like people striking,its clear you believe people should be treated badly,its clear you believe people shouldn't have a right to stand up for themselves against bullying managers...

 

People are being treated badly. Us. Just because you're feeling bad doesn't mean that the rest of us deserve to suffer too. You know that you're going around in circles. You feel that you have the right to stand up for yourself by punishing others, yet you don't feel that the ones you are punishing have the right to stand up for themselves when THEY are losing money and facilities too.

 

According to The Guardian, postal workers receive �323/week. That's far more than I earn. If I was earning that amount I would show gratitude to my employers instead of being lazy and workshy.

That'll be £323 gross per week; take off tax and NI and it'll be about £250 - actually probably less because there will also be pension contributions to be deducted. Whether that's more than you earn or not, there are a finite number of people who will do the job for that money; walking the streets in all weathers carrying a heavy bag isn't exactly glamourous.

In fact, if it's much more than what you earn, why don't you sign up as a postie?

 

If that's a problem, they could get an education and pick a more glamorous job. They're getting paid far above their skill level - let's face it, who couldn't be a postie? There are people with incredibly skill and worth, eg nurses, who aren't getting anywhere near what they actually deserve. This is just greed.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Psychosis

[A007]

I have several issues with this, but one of the main ones is that postal workers, and transport workers, are in an extremely privileged position when it comes to exerting their influence over their respective organizations.

 

I don't care what anyone says, but postal workers get paid a salary that is, frankly, out of sync with the amount of skill required to do the job. There are many far more highly skilled jobs that don't pay anything like the salary of a postal worker. Examples? A nurse. All nurses will have at least a Degree, and many will have Masters. The job involves lifelong training. It deals with situations where lives are at stake. However, Nurses don't strike - generally because if they did, people would die. Postal workers are in many cases not required to have any particular skills (I'm sorry, but it's true). They also have the luxury of striking without any apparent consequences, effectively holding the whole country to ransom until their (frankly, unreasonable) demands are met.

 

Imagine what would happen if the Metropolitan Police staged a similar walkout.

 

Postal workers (and train drivers) already get paid way more than an open market would allow. Their benefits add even more to that package. If I had the final decision (and if legislation allowed me to) at this point I would be issuing an ultimatum - either take what you've been offered, or don't bother coming back to work. I would never allow the organization to be held to ransom, and this is the key mistake that Royal Mail are making. If RM is to survive long in the 21st century, postal workers have to start dragging their mentalities out of the 70s, and start accepting that they are expected to perform. Idiotic practices like earning overtime in standard hours are just perpetuating this anachronistic environment where people seem to believe that the world owes them a good living for doing relatively little, and that they are un-accountable for their performance.

 

Whatever victories the strikers earn will be purely pyhrric. Royal Mail WILL be privatized, sooner rather than later at this rate, and the private sector absolutely will not allow this behaviour. For an example of what's going to happen to Royal Mail over the next 15 years, look at BT.

 

I'm afraid it's time to grow up and start appreciating that if you want more money, you need to perform. Postal workers have for too long been existing in an environment that rewards mediocrity. This is going to change, and postal workers need to change with it.

 

PS : - Dr Evil - please don't take this personally - it's not aimed at you.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself, good post Mike.

[Charisma]

I have several issues with this, but one of the main ones is that postal workers, and transport workers, are in an extremely privileged position when it comes to exerting their influence over their respective organizations.

 

I don't care what anyone says, but postal workers get paid a salary that is, frankly, out of sync with the amount of skill required to do the job. There are many far more highly skilled jobs that don't pay anything like the salary of a postal worker. Examples? A nurse. All nurses will have at least a Degree, and many will have Masters. The job involves lifelong training. It deals with situations where lives are at stake. However, Nurses don't strike - generally because if they did, people would die. Postal workers are in many cases not required to have any particular skills (I'm sorry, but it's true). They also have the luxury of striking without any apparent consequences, effectively holding the whole country to ransom until their (frankly, unreasonable) demands are met.

 

Imagine what would happen if the Metropolitan Police staged a similar walkout.

 

Postal workers (and train drivers) already get paid way more than an open market would allow. Their benefits add even more to that package. If I had the final decision (and if legislation allowed me to) at this point I would be issuing an ultimatum - either take what you've been offered, or don't bother coming back to work. I would never allow the organization to be held to ransom, and this is the key mistake that Royal Mail are making. If RM is to survive long in the 21st century, postal workers have to start dragging their mentalities out of the 70s, and start accepting that they are expected to perform. Idiotic practices like earning overtime in standard hours are just perpetuating this anachronistic environment where people seem to believe that the world owes them a good living for doing relatively little, and that they are un-accountable for their performance.

 

Whatever victories the strikers earn will be purely pyhrric. Royal Mail WILL be privatized, sooner rather than later at this rate, and the private sector absolutely will not allow this behaviour. For an example of what's going to happen to Royal Mail over the next 15 years, look at BT.

 

I'm afraid it's time to grow up and start appreciating that if you want more money, you need to perform. Postal workers have for too long been existing in an environment that rewards mediocrity. This is going to change, and postal workers need to change with it.

 

PS : - Dr Evil - please don't take this personally - it's not aimed at you.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself, good post Mike.

 

 

 

me either well said!

[AJ Jones]

Hello everyone. I see this debate is still going strong.

 

I am not entering into the debate, but rather sharing a little nugget of information that puts a new slant on these current strikes and future ones.

 

Having spoken to a postie who carried on working this past week, he informed me that the CWU members were ONLY BALLOTED for the one day strikes a while back. These recent two 2 day strikes were not put to the vote and next weeks aren't either. He also told me that in Bristol a fare chunk of Postal Workers chose NOT to strike and some even put up with grief from a SMALL minority of hardline strikers - something that is common in all strikes. So, although I personlly feel the strikes are wrong as I have always felt that negotiations can win over, think of the postal workers who are not striking and putting up with grief. And then think about the postal workers who have been pressurised into striking to keep the peace. It does go on, and if anyone thinks or says otherwise then I personally feel that they are livinga naive life.

 

Oh, and one more thing. Someone commented about the print media usually supporting strikes etc, but the postal workers not getting much print support. Well, I think the postal sector going on strike is probably the only sector that won't get much print media support as they want their mail. So, a kind of "screw them as I am not getting my mail" attitude. I remember the press initially supporting the fire fighters, but come a few bad fires and they mullered the fire strikers.

 

But hey, this problem isn't going to go away in a hurry and I think that those people who feel so strongly about the strikes should possibly consider voicing their displeasure to the CWU and Royal Mail management. If they get a direct public backlash, then maybe people like Dr Evil won't be put into a position of striking.

 

Anyway people, I have Momma's Home Made Stew and Dumplings waiting for me.

 

Have a peaceful evening. I hope your mail gets delivered, and I hope Dr Evil and his colleagues get a fair shake in the long run.

 

Peace and love people. We are sci fi geeks after all.

 

Wil AJ Jones

[Dr Evil]

How immature. I see now why you think this is okay.

 

 

perhaps if you changed the record rather than repeating yourself with the same stuff...its clear you don't like people striking,its clear you believe people should be treated badly,its clear you believe people shouldn't have a right to stand up for themselves against bullying managers...

 

People are being treated badly. Us. Just because you're feeling bad doesn't mean that the rest of us deserve to suffer too. You know that you're going around in circles. You feel that you have the right to stand up for yourself by punishing others, yet you don't feel that the ones you are punishing have the right to stand up for themselves when THEY are losing money and facilities too.

 

According to The Guardian, postal workers receive �323/week. That's far more than I earn. If I was earning that amount I would show gratitude to my employers instead of being lazy and workshy.

That'll be £323 gross per week; take off tax and NI and it'll be about £250 - actually probably less because there will also be pension contributions to be deducted. Whether that's more than you earn or not, there are a finite number of people who will do the job for that money; walking the streets in all weathers carrying a heavy bag isn't exactly glamourous.

In fact, if it's much more than what you earn, why don't you sign up as a postie?

 

If that's a problem, they could get an education and pick a more glamorous job. They're getting paid far above their skill level - let's face it, who couldn't be a postie? There are people with incredibly skill and worth, eg nurses, who aren't getting anywhere near what they actually deserve. This is just greed.

 

 

"get an education and pick a more glamorous job"....i find that remark f*****g offensive....just because we are posties you assume we are uneducated....you are now so desperate to offend us...you are starting to talk out of your backside....your idealism stinks of right wing snobbery!....i'm not even going to give you the attention you so clearly want on here anymore!

Edited October 11, 2007 by Dr Evil

[jael001]

wow, someone's touchy today

 

you're so desperate for us to understand you, but you're going about it completely the wrong way, you're just making us more angry at your and your co-workers

 

oh and just so you know, there's no such word as "uneducative", the word is uneducated...showing your lack of education maybe? Ok I'm joking here, but you statement was really badly constructed if you're trying to win sympathy.

Edited October 11, 2007 by jael001

[Dr Evil]

wow, someone's touchy today

 

you're so desperate for us to understand you, but you're going about it completely the wrong way, you're just making us more angry at your and your co-workers

 

oh and just so you know, there's no such word as "uneducative", the word is uneducated...showing your lack of education maybe? Ok I'm joking here, but you statement was really badly constructed if you're trying to win sympathy.

 

 

i'm not looking for sympathy i never expected that...but some remarks on here have been very offensive and clearly made to badger me,and i won't be falling for that again and ok i was typing fast.....by the way was that "you and your co-workers"...

Edited October 11, 2007 by Dr Evil

[jael001]

lol, ok you can have that one

[sparks]

How immature. I see now why you think this is okay.

 

 

perhaps if you changed the record rather than repeating yourself with the same stuff...its clear you don't like people striking,its clear you believe people should be treated badly,its clear you believe people shouldn't have a right to stand up for themselves against bullying managers...

 

People are being treated badly. Us. Just because you're feeling bad doesn't mean that the rest of us deserve to suffer too. You know that you're going around in circles. You feel that you have the right to stand up for yourself by punishing others, yet you don't feel that the ones you are punishing have the right to stand up for themselves when THEY are losing money and facilities too.

 

According to The Guardian, postal workers receive �323/week. That's far more than I earn. If I was earning that amount I would show gratitude to my employers instead of being lazy and workshy.

That'll be £323 gross per week; take off tax and NI and it'll be about £250 - actually probably less because there will also be pension contributions to be deducted. Whether that's more than you earn or not, there are a finite number of people who will do the job for that money; walking the streets in all weathers carrying a heavy bag isn't exactly glamourous.

In fact, if it's much more than what you earn, why don't you sign up as a postie?

 

If that's a problem, they could get an education and pick a more glamorous job. They're getting paid far above their skill level - let's face it, who couldn't be a postie? There are people with incredibly skill and worth, eg nurses, who aren't getting anywhere near what they actually deserve. This is just greed.

 

 

"get an education and pick a more glamorous job"....i find that remark f*****g offensive....just because we are posties you assume we are uneducated....you are now so desperate to offend us...you are starting to talk out of your backside....your idealism stinks of right wing snobbery!....i'm not even going to give you the attention you so clearly want on here anymore!

 

I've a PhD and I'm a university lecturer and I do get paid more than a postal worker, Not as much as I deserve and i don't get many perks but....

 

However, I do agree that there is an errosion on pensions in the RM (as in most places) but, I don't think this is what the strike is mainly about...Shall we discuss "Spanish Practices".

 

Personally I think that postmen should get a fair wage but then they also need to stop demanding overtime etc for when they are asked to work up to their contracted hours, or when asked to help a busy workmate if they are not etc etc etc. I don't get paid anymore if I step in to give a lecture.

 

by all means a fair wage for a fair days work, but that works BOTH ways.

 

(AND I'm a Union Official ! )

Edited October 11, 2007 by sparks

[Psychosis]

 

 

"get an education and pick a more glamorous job"....i find that remark f*****g offensive....just because we are posties you assume we are uneducated....you are now so desperate to offend us...you are starting to talk out of your backside....your idealism stinks of right wing snobbery!....i'm not even going to give you the attention you so clearly want on here anymore!

 

If you want a more glamouros job (other than don't read, mods please delete 'glamour') you need to educate yourself for it. Don't do a bog standard job then complain that you're not getting the same wages as people who're doing an incredibly complex one. Never claimed anywhere that posties are idiots, just that their job doesn't require a degree. I'm not desperate to offend you, but it's evident that you're quite happy to harm others.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Psychosis

[MikeDonovan]

just because we are posties you assume we are uneducative

 

Dr Evil I'm not sure what your argument is. I don't see how you can argue that being a postman is a skilled job. I'm not being elitist, I'm not trying to 'put you down' - I'm simply stating a fact. A lot of inner London posties don't even need a driving licence.

 

Surely you have to compare a postmans salary to the salary of workers with comparative skills. Those might be : -

 

Labourers

Waiters

Porters

Mailroom workers

 

By and large postal workers get paid many times the average salaries of those in the above list. And yet there are many very highly skilled jobs (Nurses for example) who get paid a hell of a lot less. Tell me where I'm wrong here? I'm open to being told that, in fact being a postman is a skilled job, and should attract a high salary... as long as you can provide some evidence for this. I'm open to being 'proved wrong'. Just tell me what I'm missing here. Because (and as I said before, please don't take this personally) at the moment all I can see is a large workforce of unskilled workers leveraging their privileged position to artificially enhance their salary way beyond the true worth of their occupation. There are many walks of life where people don't have that privilege, where unskilled people work for a pittance because they don't have powerful unions to control their salary through threats.

 

You have to understand the position that Royal Mail is in. Their business is struggling - coming apart at the seams. Competition from without is forcing them to make difficult decisions in order to survive. And this is not helping.

[Dr Evil]

How immature. I see now why you think this is okay.

 

 

perhaps if you changed the record rather than repeating yourself with the same stuff...its clear you don't like people striking,its clear you believe people should be treated badly,its clear you believe people shouldn't have a right to stand up for themselves against bullying managers...

 

People are being treated badly. Us. Just because you're feeling bad doesn't mean that the rest of us deserve to suffer too. You know that you're going around in circles. You feel that you have the right to stand up for yourself by punishing others, yet you don't feel that the ones you are punishing have the right to stand up for themselves when THEY are losing money and facilities too.

 

According to The Guardian, postal workers receive �323/week. That's far more than I earn. If I was earning that amount I would show gratitude to my employers instead of being lazy and workshy.

That'll be £323 gross per week; take off tax and NI and it'll be about £250 - actually probably less because there will also be pension contributions to be deducted. Whether that's more than you earn or not, there are a finite number of people who will do the job for that money; walking the streets in all weathers carrying a heavy bag isn't exactly glamourous.

In fact, if it's much more than what you earn, why don't you sign up as a postie?

 

If that's a problem, they could get an education and pick a more glamorous job. They're getting paid far above their skill level - let's face it, who couldn't be a postie? There are people with incredibly skill and worth, eg nurses, who aren't getting anywhere near what they actually deserve. This is just greed.

 

 

"get an education and pick a more glamorous job"....i find that remark f*****g offensive....just because we are posties you assume we are uneducated....you are now so desperate to offend us...you are starting to talk out of your backside....your idealism stinks of right wing snobbery!....i'm not even going to give you the attention you so clearly want on here anymore!

 

I've a PhD and I'm a university lecturer and I do get paid more than a postal worker, Not as much as I deserve and i don't get many perks but....

 

However, I do agree that there is an errosion on pensions in the RM (as in most places) but, I don't think this is what the strike is mainly about...Shall we discuss "Spanish Practices".

 

Personally I think that postmen should get a fair wage but then they also need to stop demanding overtime etc for when they are asked to work up to their contracted hours, or when asked to help a busy workmate if they are not etc etc etc. I don't get paid anymore if I step in to give a lecture.

 

by all means a fair wage for a fair days work, but that works BOTH ways.

 

(AND I'm a Union Official ! )

 

 

 

the reason postman get paid to do overtime e.g. covering say another delivery and it get done in their contracted hours is that the majority of postman start earlier than their actual starting time (coming in at 4 instead of 5)...they also work through their meal breaks and sort /deliver faster than they should...the term job and finish....if they finish at 12 on their own delivery with about 2 hours to spare they would then start on their overtime...why wait to 2pm to do it when the important thing is to get the mail out on delivery....Adam Crozier has not once mentioned that this is common practise in nearly every single office in the country...he wants you to believe that we are underworked and making far to much time out of the job.

 

 

just because we are posties you assume we are uneducative

 

Dr Evil I'm not sure what your argument is. I don't see how you can argue that being a postman is a skilled job. I'm not being elitist, I'm not trying to 'put you down' - I'm simply stating a fact. A lot of inner London posties don't even need a driving licence.

 

Surely you have to compare a postmans salary to the salary of workers with comparative skills. Those might be : -

 

Labourers

Waiters

Porters

Mailroom workers

 

By and large postal workers get paid many times the average salaries of those in the above list. And yet there are many very highly skilled jobs (Nurses for example) who get paid a hell of a lot less. Tell me where I'm wrong here? I'm open to being told that, in fact being a postman is a skilled job, and should attract a high salary... as long as you can provide some evidence for this. I'm open to being 'proved wrong'. Just tell me what I'm missing here. Because (and as I said before, please don't take this personally) at the moment all I can see is a large workforce of unskilled workers leveraging their privileged position to artificially enhance their salary way beyond the true worth of their occupation. There are many walks of life where people don't have that privilege, where unskilled people work for a pittance because they don't have powerful unions to control their salary through threats.

 

You have to understand the position that Royal Mail is in. Their business is struggling - coming apart at the seams. Competition from without is forcing them to make difficult decisions in order to survive. And this is not helping.

 

 

who said anything about wether it was a skilled job or not...i take offence to the remarks of being told to get an education if i want a more "glamorous" job.

 

 

 

 

"get an education and pick a more glamorous job"....i find that remark f*****g offensive....just because we are posties you assume we are uneducated....you are now so desperate to offend us...you are starting to talk out of your backside....your idealism stinks of right wing snobbery!....i'm not even going to give you the attention you so clearly want on here anymore!

 

If you want a more glamouros job (other than don't read, mods please delete 'glamour') you need to educate yourself for it. Don't do a bog standard job then complain that you're not getting the same wages as people who're doing an incredibly complex one. Never claimed anywhere that posties are idiots, just that their job doesn't require a degree. I'm not desperate to offend you, but it's evident that you're quite happy to harm others.

 

 

perhaps we should job swap for two weeks....you might then understanding of what it's like then....i'll find you a nice big run down estate....none of that suburbs for you!

Edited October 11, 2007 by Dr Evil

[Psychosis]

 

 

perhaps we should job swap for two weeks....you might then understanding of what it's like then....i'll find you a nice big run down estate....none of that suburbs for you!

 

Excuse me? Suburb? I DREAM of suburbs. Where I live my main priority is trying to avoid getting robbed and attacked, and where I lived previously it was all I could do just to avoid getting shot - and I don't do it for a job, I live here. Again, it comes back to, if you don't like it, drop the whining and move along, instead of punishing us for it.

 

And whether you find it insulting or not, it's a fact that if you want a better job you need a better education. It's not an opinion, or an insult, it's a basic fact.

 

You know what? I hate where I live. The council are tearing my house away, knocking it down, and only giving me a quarter of what it will take to buy a new one. Jobs are barely available. My university sucks. Do you know what I'm doing? It doesn't involve whining and hurting others. No, it involves me working my bottom off to get the education I need to get me away from the things that I don't like.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Psychosis

[jael001]

bravo Psychosis

[Dr Evil]

 

 

perhaps we should job swap for two weeks....you might then understanding of what it's like then....i'll find you a nice big run down estate....none of that suburbs for you!

 

Excuse me? Suburb? I DREAM of suburbs. Where I live my main priority is trying to avoid getting robbed and attacked, and where I lived previously it was all I could do just to avoid getting shot - and I don't do it for a job, I live here. Again, it comes back to, if you don't like it, drop the whining and move along, instead of punishing us for it.

 

And whether you find it insulting or not, it's a fact that if you want a better job you need a better education. It's not an opinion, or an insult, it's a basic fact.

 

You know what? I hate where I live. The council are tearing my house away, knocking it down, and only giving me a quarter of what it will take to buy a new one. Jobs are barely available. My university sucks. Do you know what I'm doing? It doesn't involve whining and hurting others. No, it involves me working my bottom off to get the education I need to get me away from the things that I don't like.

 

 

so your not interested in a two week job swap then?

[AJ Jones]

Just to lighten the mood through this rather heated debate...

 

I get regular e-mails from my job agency - I am unemployed..all together now..ahhhhh - and this very day one of the jobs was for a Mailroom Sorter in the sorting depot near me.

 

Am strongly considering applying...

 

Kind of ironic with the debate topic..

 

Dr Evil...piece of advice for you my friend...step away from the debate as you won't win mate. I admire your efforts...apart from the BLAH BLAH BLAH bit...but save yourself some stress and walk away. In the long run you know what the job is like, what is going on and why you are striking. There are a lot of passionately speaking people in here who will not change their opinion, and will not change the way that they speak to you. As I said before, I do not believe in striking, but I understand where you are coming from. On the other hand, I do not agree with the way that some people have spoken to you, but I can understand where they are coming from. Do the right thing and walk away from this string and save yourself the hassle mate.

 

Anyway, anyone for a Chomp bar?

 

Peace and Love People

 

Your Chubby Sci Fi Geek King

 

Wil AJ Jones

[Psychosis]

 

 

 

so your not interested in a two week job swap then?

 

No. I don't want your job, so I'm not going to take it and then start pissing and whining about not liking it when I could've saved myself the hassle and got a better one in the first place. If you don't want it, quit and give it to someone who's actually going to do the job.

[Dr Evil]

 

 

 

so your not interested in a two week job swap then?

 

No. I don't want your job, so I'm not going to take it and then start pissing and whining about not liking it when I could've saved myself the hassle and got a better one in the first place. If you don't want it, quit and give it to someone who's actually going to do the job.

 

 

well the offers there in future if you change your mind.....

 

 

 

 

AJ Jones appreciate your comments....total respect to you!

Edited October 11, 2007 by Dr Evil

[jael001]

just shows then, you need no qualifications or experience to do Dr Evil's job if he thinks is so easy to just swap jobs

[AJ Jones]

just shows then, you need no qualifications or experience to do Dr Evil's job if he thinks is so easy to just swap jobs

As Dr Evil was picked up for his less than mature "Blah Blah Blah" quoting of another poster, I find this comment from someone who has posted so passionately about this debate rather demeaning to Dr Evil. There is no justification for such a comment, even with the at the end. It just erodes your stance as Dr Evil's comment eroded his.

[TommyT]

I do understand what you're staying Tommy T, but this is a new millenium, the specific problems that were faced back when unions were first legalised are no longer relevant. The world of private industry does not have unions

A sweeping statement, I'm afraid; I can think of several private industry sectors that have a significant union presence (and these are genuine private companies, not ones that have been spun out of previous public sector industries through privatisation).

and its a case of having to treat your employees properly or you won't have any. Every industry is NOT "screwing its employees into the ground" as you put it.

I didn't say every industry was, I said every industry would in a world with no unions and no effective means of campaigning for workers' rights.

It is about competition, in industry and in jobs. Employers have to offer better deals for their employees in order to attract better employees.

In some sectors that is true. It's all supply and demand; if you have a special set of skills and they're in demand, you will get offered good packages. But a lot of industry doesn't require hugely specific skills; there are an awful lot of people who work as administrators etc who do a fine job, but are replaceable, after some training. A lot of their senior managers don't want "better" employees, so much as "cheaper" employees. Whether that's cheaper because they're more efficient and can achieve more per hour, or cheaper because they will work for less is open to debate. But given the choice of making people more efficient by training them to improve their skills and investing in improving the tools that they use, or saving money by saving the holiday allowance and chucking a couple of hours on the working week (if only for new starters, to minimise the disruption) and phasing out other benefits slowly but surely, I know which is easier to implement and shows results quicker (and has less upfront expense).

I have a friend who is a skillful and accomplished employee in a reasonably successful company, with both a degree and professional qualifications, and is in a middle management position. His industry (finance) is one where there are frequently changes, mergers, acquisitions, selling off of divisions etc. His employer is in the process of being sold for the fifth time in nine years. Every time a new owner comes along, they trim a few perks off the package, usually in the name of equalising benefits with the rest of their organisation, until there's now pretty much nothing left to take away.

I'm having a hard time with my conflicting feelings over this. Yes of course people should get the pay and benefits they've been promised. But, I truly and honestly do not believe that striking is the way to go about getting that. Why should it be ok for people in just about every other industry to suffer because 1 industry's workers decide they're not happy, for whatever reason? There has got to be some other way to work around the problems.

I'm sure both the Royal Mail and the CWU and it's memberes would appreciate any ideas you have for such an "other way".

[Dr Evil]

just shows then, you need no qualifications or experience to do Dr Evil's job if he thinks is so easy to just swap jobs

 

 

who says i haven't got an armful of qualifications!

[Psychosis]

Then use them for a better job, instead of going out of your way to ruin ours!

[TommyT]

I don't care what anyone says, but postal workers get paid a salary that is, frankly, out of sync with the amount of skill required to do the job. There are many far more highly skilled jobs that don't pay anything like the salary of a postal worker. Examples? A nurse. All nurses will have at least a Degree, and many will have Masters. The job involves lifelong training. It deals with situations where lives are at stake. However, Nurses don't strike - generally because if they did, people would die. Postal workers are in many cases not required to have any particular skills (I'm sorry, but it's true). They also have the luxury of striking without any apparent consequences, effectively holding the whole country to ransom until their (frankly, unreasonable) demands are met.

It's not just skill level that sets a salary; other factors such as demand for people to do the job, and the supply of people willing to do it, the perceived danger or unpleasantness of the job. Frankly, spending much of my working day wandering around in the crap weather we have so much of the year wouldn't appeal to me in the slightest. Yes, nurses are underpaid, but I'm not sure where that fits in here. Incidentally, my faith in nurses was rather shaken last year when my cousin was visiting her mother in hospital and had to tell the nurse that since she had just catheterised her mother, she actually needed to wash her hands before she changed the dressing on her mother's abdomen. Actually my faith was really shaken when the nurse apparently asked "why?" Still, I wouldn't use that to demonise the whole profession. Similarly, reviewing what looks to be a pretty even-handed summary of the dispute at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7039138.stm it's obvious that, unsurprisingly in a workforce of tens of thousands, there are some good and dedicated staff, and some who might be thought to be taking the michael, albeit perhaps because it's been custom and practice. It's not a black and white situation, and simplistic vilification of one side or the other doesn't really get anyone anywhere (except, maybe, Woundupsville).

Postal workers (and train drivers) already get paid way more than an open market would allow. Their benefits add even more to that package. If I had the final decision (and if legislation allowed me to) at this point I would be issuing an ultimatum - either take what you've been offered, or don't bother coming back to work. I would never allow the organization to be held to ransom, and this is the key mistake that Royal Mail are making. If RM is to survive long in the 21st century, postal workers have to start dragging their mentalities out of the 70s, and start accepting that they are expected to perform. Idiotic practices like earning overtime in standard hours are just perpetuating this anachronistic environment where people seem to believe that the world owes them a good living for doing relatively little, and that they are un-accountable for their performance.

The whole problem is deep-rooted and historic. Sure, some of the restrictive practices are ludicrous and unacceptable in this day and age, but the whole process of reforming them doesn't seem to have been as adeptly implemented as in some other industries or companies. It also doesn't help that there has historically been under-investment in the industry, and until lately a lack of political will to reform and aim for efficiency. The problem with the pension scheme has been predictable for years, but again there seems to have been an awful lot of "head in the sand" about it. It's been a mess waiting to happen.

 

 

However, I do agree that there is an errosion on pensions in the RM (as in most places) but, I don't think this is what the strike is mainly about...Shall we discuss "Spanish Practices".

 

Personally I think that postmen should get a fair wage but then they also need to stop demanding overtime etc for when they are asked to work up to their contracted hours, or when asked to help a busy workmate if they are not etc etc etc. I don't get paid anymore if I step in to give a lecture.

 

by all means a fair wage for a fair days work, but that works BOTH ways.

 

(AND I'm a Union Official ! )

Can't say fairer than that.