TishTosh Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 yes! Its quite offensive to some people! (im talkin about the whole 'kids' thing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisg Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 I've had enough of debating with kids Kris and why is that? do "kids" not have valid opinions? do adults automatically have the ability to form sound arguements. i've read your posts and you have indeed made some valid points. unfortunately you have also been emotive and subjective at times which is never helpful during a debate. i'll point out that most of the people you have referred to as "kids" are infact over 18 and some have children of their own... but that is beside the point, EVERYONE on this forum has the right to argue or agree with you irrespective of their age. thanks for your comments. i think you have been clear and articulate in every post you have written. i hope you do not feel the need to keep repeating yourself as you could appear to be beligerant rather than constructive and i'm sure this is not what you're aiming for. no i think that it is very clear that adults do not automatically have the ability to form sound arguments but I would also have to debate how much the under 18 age-group would bring to a forum such as this. I think that you would have to agree with me that it is indeed frustrating trying to convey a point on here when some people obviously do not read your comments properly and are so blinkered they fail to see any other direction apart from their own...as you can see from my previous posts on other threads I have tried to see the opinion of other people and have been flexible with my own opinions - to my mind this is where the best ideas comes from. So you'll have to excuse my emotiveness and subjection to some posts - it's frustration more than anything else. If most of the people on here are indeed over 18 then perhaps some of them should act their age...simply saying what i say is wrong is not an argument, not does it construct any form of debate...if you notice I have always tried to reply to any form of constructive disagreement that has been aimed at me. I want to come across as a help rather than a hindrance and like I have said before I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is by giving up time and money to present my views to SM. i do appreciate what you are try to say. kris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockstar6662 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Maybe if anyone had time, it'd be better to collate a list of observations and suggested solutions into one document to present for consideration. with respect no thanks - I'd rather do this face to face and get feedback from SM too - almost like a brainstorming session. If it ends up as a document we may as well submit this entire forum with all of the threads. Fair enough. It'd probably be a lot of work although (and apologies if I'm preaching to the converted here) I often find it's better to go into a meeting with at least an outline document for discussion so that no points are missed, rather than just turn up and see what happens. I'm sure you're aware of this too but having thought through some possible solutions in advance also helps rather than going in and saying "here's the problems what will you do about it?". Can save a lot of time. I know you're joking (I hope) but there's too much repetition, conflict and general abuse to make using the forum as a basis a good idea. The issues really need to be distilled and summarised into something coherent (and fairly brief). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisg Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 yes! Its quite offensive to some people! (im talkin about the whole 'kids' thing) do you ever have anything constructive to say - you are exactly the type of person i am referring to in my previous post. You follow CQB around like some form of unwanted pet - slapping him on back when he makes a good comment - what is your purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisg Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Maybe if anyone had time, it'd be better to collate a list of observations and suggested solutions into one document to present for consideration. with respect no thanks - I'd rather do this face to face and get feedback from SM too - almost like a brainstorming session. If it ends up as a document we may as well submit this entire forum with all of the threads. Fair enough. It'd probably be a lot of work although (and apologies if I'm preaching to the converted here) I often find it's better to go into a meeting with at least an outline document for discussion so that no points are missed, rather than just turn up and see what happens. I'm sure you're aware of this too but having thought through some possible solutions in advance also helps rather than going in and saying "here's the problems what will you do about it?". Can save a lot of time. I know you're joking (I hope) but there's too much repetition, conflict and general abuse to make using the forum as a basis a good idea. The issues really need to be distilled and summarised into something coherent (and fairly brief). ok that makes sense - i thought you meant a document INSTEAD of a meeting...I'm all for collating a document in preparation for a meeting...otherwise valuable time can be wasted debating what is to be discussed. apologies for misunderstanding you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TishTosh Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 yes! Its quite offensive to some people! (im talkin about the whole 'kids' thing) do you ever have anything constructive to say - you are exactly the type of person i am referring to in my previous post. You follow CQB around like some form of unwanted pet - slapping him on back when he makes a good comment - what is your purpose? Oh, that was constructive! Dont catergorise me. Follow CQB around like some unwanted pet simply because I reply to one post as I agree? I was simply replying to Idril about ditching the whole 'kids' thing. Ur being rude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockstar6662 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 ok that makes sense - i thought you meant a document INSTEAD of a meeting...I'm all for collating a document in preparation for a meeting...otherwise valuable time can be wasted debating what is to be discussed. apologies for misunderstanding you. LOL! No problem, I probably wasn't clear enough to start with. Guess it just shows how easy is to misunderstand the written word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WomanofSoul Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 ok that makes sense - i thought you meant a document INSTEAD of a meeting...I'm all for collating a document in preparation for a meeting...otherwise valuable time can be wasted debating what is to be discussed. apologies for misunderstanding you. LOL! No problem, I probably wasn't clear enough to start with. Guess it just shows how easy is to misunderstand the written word Maybe we should all take note of that one comment, it could just stop the war of words!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisg Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 ok that makes sense - i thought you meant a document INSTEAD of a meeting...I'm all for collating a document in preparation for a meeting...otherwise valuable time can be wasted debating what is to be discussed. apologies for misunderstanding you. LOL! No problem, I probably wasn't clear enough to start with. Guess it just shows how easy is to misunderstand the written word Maybe we should all take note of that one comment, it could just stop the war of words!!!! fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loremaster Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Under 18? Over 18? I guess a mix of the two, probably balanced in favour of the over 18s simply because that is both more practical and also likely to provide more business/life experience. But don't, under any circumstances, ignore the under 18s, their views must be heard. They are a key part of the audience and deserve our respect. Pre-meeting document or this forum's threads? I suggest that if - and heck is it a big if!!! - SM are interested in this then perhaps they should read the forum, have due regard to their own views of how the weekend went and what they plan for the future and then put forward an agenda to those who are invited to a meeting so that everyone can be prepared. Of course, any meeting always finishes with "Any Other Business" so it should be a tad flexible.... ! In a way I sense that this is pretty presumptious in that SM are running a business and aren't obliged to take account of anyone's views let alone hold a meeting to discuss them. On the other hand, any good business spots when its customers are unhappy and listens to their views, and anyone who is prepared to travel to take part in a constructive discussion about future SM events has to be at least as useful as someone prepared to act as a volunteer steward at such events. No more, no less. Moreover, I think all of us - and I'd be surprised if SM didn't endorse this - recognise irrespective of our experience/opinion of last weekend that these events are now at a watershed in terms of the level of guests invited, the number of fans attending, and the suitability of the venue as well as the admission/ticket/stewarding arrangements. The bottom line is that I'm with Krisg on this, I'll fit in with pretty well any suggestion SM may make - including any rude ones ! Say the word and you won't hear from me again! So, in the immortal words of Lloyd Grossman, "Showmasters, it's over to you...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockstar6662 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Pre-meeting document or this forum's threads? I suggest that if - and heck is it a big if!!! - SM are interested in this then perhaps they should read the forum, have due regard to their own views of how the weekend went and what they plan for the future and then put forward an agenda to those who are invited to a meeting so that everyone can be prepared. I'm sure there's also lots of behind the scenes issues that we are completely unaware of which will have an impact on all our arguments. We're just seeing it from one side. There is also of course a big assumption that they'd even want to consider what's being discussed here. They're obviously not stupid or they wouldn't be able to put on such an event in the first place (make a very good job of it overall) and I'm sure are fully aware of what people have been saying both good and bad. Other than being "joe punter" who brings in the money at these shows, we do have to be careful not to be too forceful in telling them how to run their business or demanding this and that. We're obviously concerned that the problems reported by some are going to have a negative impact (especially in the wake of the recent Watchdog report on another event which according to them got many things wrong and implied other events were just as bad) and it's great that so many people genuinely want to try and get involved to make sure the whole thing is even better next time but ultimately it's their business so let's not forget to respect that as well. If they come looking for some direct input, so be it but at the very least I hope they read what's been said and take on board some of the more reasonable and thoughtout suggestions that crop up amongst the personal bickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TishTosh Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Im sure they will be reading all of this when they have recovered and have time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockstar6662 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Im sure they will be reading all of this when they have recovered and have time Yes, of course, lets not forget they're all probably going to be sleeping for a few weeks to recover from it all and while we'd maybe like a response straight away, there is time to reflect and take the events of last weekend on board I think they deserve a bit of a break before starting all out on the next one - although I dare say some pre-planning has already been underway considering how far in advance guests have to be booked. Probably even worse than booking a tour for a band which often happens a year or more in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showmasters Admin showmasters Posted October 8, 2003 Showmasters Admin Share Posted October 8, 2003 Hi everyone, Despite what you may think of us, we are interested in your views. We would be happy to meet up with anyone that wishes to, and answer any questions that you may have. We know that we did our best for Collectormania 4, and whilst we acknowledge that there are things that need to be improved or changed, we do not believe that it was the unmitigated disaster that some of you would make out. We can honestly say that on most points there is a reason why something was done in a particular way, and we would be happy to share these things with you. Please do not misunderstand me. We know that there were problems, and we do not shy away from them. There are undoubtedly some things that we have to just put our hands up to. However, we live in the real world where sometimes things do not go as you plan, and you have to adjust and cope the best you can. Anyway, as I said, we would very much like to meet up with people for a constructive discussion. From our point of view, no subject is off limits, and we are happy to talk about anything. All I would say is that we expect anyone attending to engage in constructive discussion, and not just a shouting match. That does not serve anyone. It would be useful if people could let us know if they intend to come along, as it would be pretty pointless us turning up if no-one else does. We propose to meet outside Costa Coffee on the edge of Middleton Hall at 2pm on this Saturday 11th October. We are interested in what you have to say, and will listen. We will also explain why we did some of the things that we did in the way that we did them, and talk over how things can be made better. I hope that as many of you who wish to will attend, and we look forward to meeting you. All the best Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockstar6662 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 That all sounds extremely fair and generous and it'd be nice to meet some of the people behind an event I enjoyed and even some of the people here but unfortunately I'm helping my brother move into his new flat on Saturday and probably won't be able to get there. Maybe I could email someone who can make it privately with a few of my thoughts to add to their own to take along. I'll be brief I promise. I had a pretty great weekend, can't wait for the next one but do have a few sensible and constructive ideas from my observations which I think might be worth throwing into the pot. Please feel free to contact me at info@howardcrowe.co.uk if that can be arranged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiccawise21 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 wow! sounds like people are taking this thing waaay too seriously if you ask me!! and i mean the whole argument thing because i think it is a great idea to have a meet up to see what EVERONE has to say!! i have to defend the under 18's.. i mean how can one day really make a difference.. what is is about the clock ticking past midnite that suddenly turns you into an adult?? i guess for some things there has to be a limit.. like alcohol!! but with something like this where do you draw the line?? i mean no one is exactly the same!! everyone has different experiences and i know pleanty of people who are a long way past 18 and would not have one valuable comment to make to such an argument as this!! anyway.. i think showmasters has agreed to let the meeting be open to anyone!! why else hold it on a non school day?? go showmasters!! but just for the record... why are their sooo many complaints this time around!! i agree that there are some things that need to be ironed out but jeeze.. organising something as huge as this cannot be easy!! i wish i could tell u just how hard it was.. but unfortunately i wasnt in on any of it!! i was just a lowly visitor!! i just wonder how well some poeple would have coped in SM's position!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyrdsister Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Aww! I can't make it Saturday, though I'd love to contribute. Will you be able to post a "minutes" as it were, or let me know if you can hold other meets. I work Week ends and I have to book the time off, you see. As I've said already, I'd like to help. I'm sure Mark or other Showmasters peeps will be able to get my e-mail from my registration form on this forum...or should I e-mail you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockstar6662 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 but just for the record... why are their sooo many complaints this time around!! i agree that there are some things that need to be ironed out but jeeze.. organising something as huge as this cannot be easy!! i wish i could tell u just how hard it was.. but unfortunately i wasnt in on any of it!! i was just a lowly visitor!! i just wonder how well some poeple would have coped in SM's position!! Why are there so many complaints? I'd suggest one of the reasons for doing this is to find out? A lot of people would seem to have had extremely bad experiences and yes, I agree with you, putting on an event like this is a huge undertaking and I don't for an instant envy any of the people involved but for the most part it seems to have gone extremely well and they are to be congratulated on making so many people very happy indeed. But it would be remiss to ignore the complaints and not at least consider what people have been saying - if only to see if there's any grounds to them. These aren't minor moans and gripes but serious claims and accusations from people saying they'll never go to one of these events again. If it was just one or two people you might ignore it but it's not, so obviously something needs to be looked at. I'm not here to lay huge critisisms at their feet as I do think many people have overreacted and there were lots of very helpful people there who did their best to make things work but from my own observations, married to all the comments I've read (both good and bad) I have some relatively minor suggestions which I think would help iron out a lot of the issues raised. I'm not trying to have a go at anyone and none of what I've said previously or will say is a personal attack on anyone else's views and maybe this has all been blown out of proportion to a degree. But as an interested (if new) party who'd like to see the event carry on and be successful (and who writes too much), I and obviously others as well, think there are some ideas to offer for consideration that may help it run more smoothly. And no, I'm not an expert and there's no particular reason those ideas should even be considered but full credit to SM's for considering talking to people to see what they have to suggest. What they do with that information is entirely up to them but you can't ask fairer than that and I hope for those who do go, it's a productive and worthwhile exercise minus all the bickering, accusations etc that's going on in some parts of the forum as that helps no-one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisg Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hi everyone, Despite what you may think of us, we are interested in your views. We would be happy to meet up with anyone that wishes to, and answer any questions that you may have. We know that we did our best for Collectormania 4, and whilst we acknowledge that there are things that need to be improved or changed, we do not believe that it was the unmitigated disaster that some of you would make out. We can honestly say that on most points there is a reason why something was done in a particular way, and we would be happy to share these things with you. Please do not misunderstand me. We know that there were problems, and we do not shy away from them. There are undoubtedly some things that we have to just put our hands up to. However, we live in the real world where sometimes things do not go as you plan, and you have to adjust and cope the best you can. Anyway, as I said, we would very much like to meet up with people for a constructive discussion. From our point of view, no subject is off limits, and we are happy to talk about anything. All I would say is that we expect anyone attending to engage in constructive discussion, and not just a shouting match. That does not serve anyone. It would be useful if people could let us know if they intend to come along, as it would be pretty pointless us turning up if no-one else does. We propose to meet outside Costa Coffee on the edge of Middleton Hall at 2pm on this Saturday 11th October. We are interested in what you have to say, and will listen. We will also explain why we did some of the things that we did in the way that we did them, and talk over how things can be made better. I hope that as many of you who wish to will attend, and we look forward to meeting you. All the best Mark Mark Good on you and thanks for taking up the offer - it is very much appreciated. However I have to go to New York for the weekend with work and won't be able to make Saturday - it is a little soon. Are you based in Milton Keynes - do you ever venture away - perhaps we could meet up in London or somewhere on your travels - or perhaps over the phone. An informal open meeting in a cafe wasn't quite what I had in mind but this is certainly better than nothing at all - so thanks for putting up the time. Kris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamps! Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 By the way, can I just say welcome to the forum all those that have joined, since the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiePosieDanderfluff Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Sadly I'm travelling to Wales on the Saturday as well, but this meet-up seems the most constructive way to discuss C4. I second "wyrdsister"'s proposal for some "minutes" of the meet to be posted to enable us who are unable to attend to be aware of what was discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dum dumdum Dum Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Unfortunately I won't be able to be there on Saturday although I would have been very interested in discussing things. I have some experience in the organization of major events and know and appreciate all the hard work that goes in to it and I was at C3 and C4 so have now seen it from the other side as well. Like Rosie I would be interested in reading minutes since I am in no financial situation to fly to the UK for a meeting such as this. Good initiative to do this thing though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vamps! Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Ok I don't think I will be able to get up to Milton Keynes myself, (damn I really ought to learn how to drive, lol). However I have given this much thought and my thoughts are as follows: I noticed that one of the problems were having the queues for meeting guests out where the shoppers were, perhaps a change of location for the guests, perhaps more in the middle of the hall rather than on the edge, this should help with seperating shoppers form C4 visitors. Perhaps even consider having less stalls, so as to make more room for people to walk easily. Although I understand that LOTR guests could only come for Sunday and Monday signings, due to some press thing in USA, having seen the amount of people that attended C4, I can't help but wonder if it would be easier to have BIG guests on different days. eg Sean and Elijah on Sunday and then Andy and Dom on Monday. Might help to ease on the people congestion. I would also recommend having more staff to help out, I feel that perhaps a few more staff members at the info desk might have helped, also just in general, I can't help but wonder how many members of staff had breaks, without breaks this would have indeed contributed to any high stress levels. If it the case that some people found staff to be rude, you do need to remember that they will have worked an extremely long day. Having more staff would mean that regular breaks could be taken thus staff being less stressed. With things like costume competitions, be specific when and where will they be held, as far as I know there wasn't one, apologies if I am wrong on this one. One thing that I did notice, which did pee me off for a bit was members of press interviewing guests while they were signing, this means that less paying customers would get to see the guests, this is fans time!!!!!! Could the the guests/press do a press conference in the evenings, away from the customers??????? This would mean that guests can concentrate on their fans and more fans will get to meet their guests. Now the issue about tickets - I would change the style of tickets, I have read somewhere that people were purchasing raffle tickets and then pulling out their own numbered tickets. Had I thought about it, I probably would have done it myself, but then i am too honest about that. Make the tickets unique!!!! Also why hand out 1000 or so tickets???? It is impossible for a guest to sign that many times in one day, when you consider they they need breaks too. This only gets fans hopes up of meeting guests, when really it is not the case. Stick with your 500, then if it looks like the guests can squeeze in some fans, then issue more. I will probably get my head bitten off for this, but I really feel you ought to limit the number of autographs per ticket, it is not fair when you have dealers there getting over 10 items signed in one go, this again eats up valuable time for other fans, Therefore I recommend no more than 5 autographs per ticket. If you want more, then I'm sorry get another ticket and queue up again, give everyone a fair go. Anyway thats all I can think of for now, I will add more later if I feel need to. By the way Krisq - what do you do huns, I'm kinda intrigued????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jandel Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I would like to go to this meeting on Saturday (although at the moment it sounds like it will only be me and Mark!). If anyone wants to send some reaonably brief questions/suggestions to petejandel@hotmail.com I will put them forward and remove duplicates and post a summary of the answers / suggestions. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loremaster Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Oh dear, I'm afraid I'm another one who having called for a meeting and had Showmasters instantly agree to it - nice one Mark - can't make the suggested time. I'm afraid it's just too short notice having been away last weekend and the one before that as well. I'd certainly still be happy to discuss things some other time, Milton Keynes or London would be fine, Farnborough would be even better as that's where I live ! Alternatively, like Kris I would be happy to have a brief chat on the phone if that was thought worthwhile. Lore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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