Peter Capaldi Fan Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Just now, R4wly97 said: I have another question is the Doctor immortal now? There’s a question as to why the Time Lords gave the Doctor a new set of regenerations in Time of the Doctor if she doesn’t actually need them? Perhaps the Time Lords just dish out a new regeneration cycle at the end of the old. Now all the Time Lords are definitely dead (until they're not) will there be no new regeneration cycle? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Namine said: What makes it terrible is the fact that The Master has forgotten about the twelve regeneration limit...so he's pretty much screwed had his plan worked with creating new Time Lord Cybermen! I'll admit to being unsure exactly where The Master is in his regeneration cycle. So we have the Eric Robert master, who I dont think has the ability to regenerate, as he started as that slime snake thing and had to take over a paramedic's body. I'm not sure how he then ends up as Derek Jacobi in time for the Time War. The Jacobi Master has regained the ability to regenerate, as he regenerates into Simm on screen. The Simm Master allowed himself to die, and was burned alive, and was brought back to life by literal magic. We never see him regenerate into Missy, nor do we see Missy regenerate into the Dhawan Master. I don't think we'll ever get an answer on this to be honest. After all, there's at least 12 incarnations of the Master before Delgado that we haven't seen on screen, as the end of the Delgado Master's life was when he became the decayed Master we see in The Deadly Assassin. Edited March 1, 2020 by The Friendly Dalek 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4wly97 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 minute ago, The Friendly Dalek said: Maybe her species from that dimension always had a limit on their lives, and the Time Lords discovered this before The Doctor reached her final life in her first cycle? So they could then work a way around that limit and allow The Doctor to live longer? This is pure speculation on my part because there's no real answer annoyingly. I want to know what she actually is, where she came from, etc. Yeah because basically we don’t know what her species is anymore. I keep thinking back to that part in the episode Listen of Series 8 when we see the Doctor as a child and you can hear a male Gallifreyan in the background saying he’ll never make a Time Lord , now we realise that’s because the Doctor isn’t one! Two people have just messaged me, one is saying he’s never watching Doctor Who again after tonight, the other is at a bar and drinking multiple glasses of beer after watching it 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4wly97 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 minute ago, The Friendly Dalek said: I'll admit to being unsure exactly where The Master is in his regeneration cycle. So we have the Eric Robert master, who I dont think has the ability to regenerate, as he started as that slime snake thing and had to take over a paramedic's body. I'm not sure how he then ends up as Derek Jacobi in time for the Time War. The Jacobi Master has regained the ability to regenerate, as he regenerates into Simm on screen. The Simm Master allowed himself to die, and was burned alive, and was brought back to life by literal magic. We never see him regenerate into Missy, nor do we see Missy regenerate into the Dhawan Master. I don't think we'll ever get an answer on this to be honest. After all, there's at least 12 incarnations of the Master before Delgado that we haven't seen on screen, as the end of the Delgado Master's life was when he became the decayed Master we see in The Deadly Assassin. I think Dhawan’s Master is my favourite now, I saw him as the Master as soon as he revealed himself in Spyfall, I just think Sacha is such a good actor! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Capaldi Fan Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, The Friendly Dalek said: I'll admit to being unsure exactly where The Master is in his regeneration cycle. So we have the Eric Robert master, who I dont think has the ability to regenerate, as he started as that slime snake thing and had to take over a paramedic's body. I'm not sure how he then ends up as Derek Jacobi in time for the Time War. The Jacobi Master has regained the ability to regenerate, as he regenerates into Simm on screen. The Simm Master allowed himself to die, and was burned alive, and was brought back to life by literal magic. We never see him regenerate into Missy, nor do we see Missy regenerate into the Dhawan Master. I don't think we'll ever get an answer on this to be honest. After all, there's at least 12 incarnations of the Master before Delgado that we haven't seen on screen, as the end of the Delgado Master's life was when he became the decayed Master we see in The Deadly Assassin. Didn't The Master get a new regeneration cycle for doing his bit in The Time War? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 I've been talking this episode over with some friends, some of them really liked it, others such as myself aren't really a fan. I imagine this one will be a major source of debate for a long time to come. It's going to annoy me now watching older episodes like The Three Doctors, in which the Hartnell Doctor is explicitly referred to as "The Earliest Doctor." Another inconsistency this has raised is the Clara issue. In The Name Of The Doctor, Clara enters the Doctor's timestream, in order to help every past incarnation. I can barely accept the idea of the entire Time Lord race being unaware of where exactly their regenerative abilities came from, so none of the Time Lords knew there were Doctor's pre Hartnell, but why can't Clara see or interact with any pre-Hartnell Doctors? Surely it doesn't work as they can only access things the Doctors themselves were able to remember at the time? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, R4wly97 said: I think Dhawan’s Master is my favourite now, I saw him as the Master as soon as he revealed himself in Spyfall, I just think Sacha is such a good actor! I absolutely love his take on the character as well, I'm hugely excited to meet him at LFCC soon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namine Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 minute ago, The Friendly Dalek said: I'll admit to being unsure exactly where The Master is in his regeneration cycle. So we have the Eric Robert master, who I dont think has the ability to regenerate, as he started as that slime snake thing and had to take over a paramedic's body. I'm not sure how he then ends up as Derek Jacobi in time for the Time War. The Jacobi Master has regained the ability to regenerate, as he regenerates into Simm on screen. The Simm Master allowed himself to die, and was burned alive, and was brought back to life by literal magic. We never see him regenerate into Missy, nor do we see Missy regenerate into the Dhawan Master. I don't think we'll ever get an answer on this to be honest. After all, there's at least 12 incarnations of the Master before Delgado that we haven't seen on screen, as the end of the Delgado Master's life was when he became the decayed Master we see in The Deadly Assassin. The Master had used up his entire regenerations. The Anthony Ainley Master was the result of The Master taking over Traken's body but it was not Time Lord compatible, so when the Daleks killed him, he turned into a snake and possessed the Eric Roberts character becoming The Master once again, however his ideas to usurp The Doctors five remaining Regenerations went wrong as he got thrown into the Eye of Harmony by The Doctor but then was resurrected by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War (Derek Jacobi's War Master) who ran to the end of the universe and became Professor YANA until the fob watch was opened, he was shot and regenerated into the Harold Saxton Master and then died as he refused to regenerate (which is one thing the time lords can do if they wish so), but then was resurrected once more in End Of Time by his cult, and disappeared into Gallifrey by taking on Rassilon in the way that he was helping The Doctor, he wasn't seen until his Missy incarnation and then again in his Harold Saxton incarnation where he gave a reason why he was still alive. So this new Master - Sacha Dhawan's Master is between Harold Saxton Incarnation and Missy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mfahey79 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 19 minutes ago, scoopsahoy said: I also agree with everyone’s thoughts on Jodie (and I’m glad I’m not alone with it). I want to like her but her material for the most part is dyer. I have friends and family who absolutely love Thirteen and have done from her first episode but for me she’s unfortunately my least favourite Doctor at the moment. As I mentioned in the other thread, I do have to admit that I’ve warmed to her more this season and I do think she’s trying her best but she - along with the rest of the cast - need better material to work with. As it goes, the only character I’ve actually cared for during Thirteen’s era so far is Graham. Bradley Walsh had been the best thing about this era, and he'll be the only one of this crew I'd miss. Part of me would like season 13 to be Jodie with a new team, or just her and Bradley 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Peter Capaldi Fan said: Didn't The Master get a new regeneration cycle for doing his bit in The Time War? I'll be honest with you, I haven't listened to the Big Finish Time War stories, and I'm not sure if that was ever explained on screen. If anyone can think of any time where this was referred to in the show I'd be happy to know. I thought he was brought back to life by Rassilon to fight in the War? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namine Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Just now, Mfahey79 said: Bradley Walsh had been the best thing about this era, and he'll be the only one of this crew I'd miss. Part of me would like season 13 to be Jodie with a new team, or just her and Bradley Well I doubt they're gonna go back with Graham, Yaz and Ryan because she dropped them off on Earth once again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Capaldi Fan Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 And if The Doctor is not a Time Lord but another species does that mean she has a whole new fam just waiting to be found? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Namine said: The Master had used up his entire regenerations. The Anthony Ainley Master was the result of The Master taking over Traken's body but it was not Time Lord compatible, so when the Daleks killed him, he turned into a snake and possessed the Eric Roberts character becoming The Master once again, however his ideas to usurp The Doctors five remaining Regenerations went wrong as he got thrown into the Eye of Harmony by The Doctor but then was resurrected by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War (Derek Jacobi's War Master) who ran to the end of the universe and became Professor YANA until the fob watch was opened, he was shot and regenerated into the Harold Saxton Master and then died as he refused to regenerate (which is one thing the time lords can do if they wish so), but then was resurrected once more in End Of Time by his cult, and disappeared into Gallifrey by taking on Rassilon in the way that he was helping The Doctor, he wasn't seen until his Missy incarnation and then again in his Harold Saxton incarnation where he gave a reason why he was still alive. So this new Master - Sacha Dhawan's Master is between Harold Saxton Incarnation and Missy. Thank you for that explanation. So I was correct in thinking he had to be resurrected for the Time War, so I imagine they would have given him a new cycle when they resurrected him. So in this new cycle, we've seen Jacobi, Simm, Gomez and Dhawan. If Mizzy was at the end, then that leaves another 9 potential Masters between Simm and Missy that we haven't seen yet. Edited March 1, 2020 by The Friendly Dalek 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4wly97 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Peter Capaldi Fan said: And if The Doctor is not a Time Lord but another species does that mean she has a whole new fam just waiting to be found? I hope so although I think we may never find that out. I understand why she shoved the Master on the floor tonight after what she’s been through 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoopsahoy Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mfahey79 said: Bradley Walsh had been the best thing about this era, and he'll be the only one of this crew I'd miss. Part of me would like season 13 to be Jodie with a new team, or just her and Bradley If I’m honest, I’m actually surprised at how poor Tosin and Mandip’s performances have been. I remember the two of them being in Hollyoaks a few years ago and they weren’t bad actors. Of course, a trashy soap opera (which I only still tune into as a guilty pleasure because of how long I’ve watched it, honest! ) is perhaps a bad comparison to make but I do remember Mandip’s character in particular having some very dark storylines and she did a good job at portraying them. Tosin’s character was more of a comic relief sort but he gave a pretty good performance during one of his last scenes. From what I personally know of these two, in my opinion think the writing has failed them both tremendously. That, and having to act out bad material with a put-on Yorkshire accent. I’m not sure about Mandip but I know Tosin is from an area within London so I don’t understand why Chibnall chose Yorkshire of all places for this era when surely it would’ve been easier and probably more beneficial to the cast to stick with London as the companions’ home city. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raylenth Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Mfahey79 said: I'm disappointed that they bring John Barrowman back for a 10 minute cameo early in the season, only to not give him and Jodie a scene together. Maybe they're saving it for the christmas special Me too, it seemed a massive build up to nothing. I kept looking at the clock thinking '10 minutes to go, it's getting tight if they are going to bring him in' '5 minutes to go, surely it'll be now'. So yeah, that felt like a hype ball of nothing. On the whole, I'm just confused and wondering why I'm bothering any more. If the episodes aren't preachy, they are like a ball of knotted wool. I love Who and always will but everything's gotten so complicated I feel like 'huh' most of the time, there so much to try and remember to even have a clue about what's going on and I've failed at it. How did Missie become Sacha Master, how did Sacha Master escape the realm of the weird ghosty people. The flashes happened too quick for me and I was having a hard time staying awake during one section so I've no idea what the explanation for the Department and the Irish scenario was and how it fits in. So yeah, on one hand I feel and on the other Some of the plot felt silly to me - it probably took them far longer to degoopify 4 Cybermen than it would have to just find another way of getting out of there, especially as Yas and Graham sat around doing nothing whilst that was happening. I liked Sacha as the master, it must be hard to have to be that intense without making it too hammy and I think he did it well. I'm not sure where Jodie is on my Doctor scale, she's probably middle bottom at the moment, but as you have all said, it's the writing that's killing it for her version. I did like the design of the Time Lord Cybermen but ultimately it was stupid. The cybermen are a race of emotionless cyborgs, they aren't going to suddenly say 'hey how about we make our new armour fancy! I hear helmet swirls are in this season' At least they will have no problems picking up Radio 4. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4wly97 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 minute ago, scoopsahoy said: If I’m honest, I’m actually surprised at how poor Tosin and Mandip’s performances have been. I remember the two of them being in Hollyoaks a few years ago and they weren’t bad actors. Of course, a trashy soap opera (which I only still tune into as a guilty pleasure because of how long I’ve watched it, honest! ) is perhaps a bad comparison to make but I do remember Mandip’s character in particular having some very dark storylines and she did a good job at portraying them. Tosin’s character was more of a comic relief sort but he gave a pretty good performance during one of his last scenes. From what I personally know of these two, in my opinion think the writing has failed them both tremendously. That, and having to act out bad material with a put-on Yorkshire accent. I’m not sure about Mandip but I know Tosin is from an area within London so I don’t understand why Chibnall chose Yorkshire of all places for this era when surely it would’ve been easier and probably more beneficial to the cast to stick with London as the companions’ home city. Tosin was in Star Wars as well wasn’t he I can’t remember which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, R4wly97 said: Tosin was in Star Wars as well wasn’t he I can’t remember which one? He had a small role as a Resistance fighter pilot in The Force Awakens. I agree with all of you that the lead cast has been tremendously let down by poor writing. Edited March 1, 2020 by The Friendly Dalek 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoopsahoy Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, R4wly97 said: Tosin was in Star Wars as well wasn’t he I can’t remember which one? Yeah, I had a scroll through his IMDb and he had a small role in The Force Awakens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Capaldi Fan Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, R4wly97 said: Tosin was in Star Wars as well wasn’t he I can’t remember which one? Spoiler alert - he has a new project coming up. Major TV series. He is probably leaving DW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjbleming Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Overall I enjoyed the episode, Sacha was great as the Master (I’m gonna hold out on the explanation about where he sits in the timeline till I see the regeneration. Persnickety but I prefer to see it through) but I agree with what’s been said before re: Dr Ruth and Captain Jack. At the moment I’m unsure about the retcon. It changes everything about the Doc and is a massive risk to take. There’s also now a plot hole as if Ruth came before Hartnell, then there’s no reason that I can think of as to why she’d have the police box TARDIS when the chameleon circuit broke when Hartnell’s Doctor landed in 1963 London in An Unearthly Child. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) Russell T. Davies also said that the woman we see in The End Of Time is supposed to be the Doctor's mother, so is she a regeneration of the adoptive mother we saw tonight? Edited March 1, 2020 by The Friendly Dalek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namine Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Just now, The Friendly Dalek said: Russell T. Davies also said that the woman we see in The End Of Time is supposed to be the Doctor's mother, so is she a regeneration of the adoptive mother we saw tonight? Apparently it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Friendly Dalek Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Namine said: Apparently it is. It's the only way it would make any sense yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4wly97 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 26 minutes ago, Namine said: Apparently it is. Yeah that’s what I heard as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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