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DavidB

Lost Season 5 - Episodes 16 & 17 - Season Finale

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I would like the know why Jacob touched everyone when he visited them. Like he was marking them or something.

He touched little kate on the nose, he touched little james when he handed him the pen. Locke when he brought him back to life...anyone got any theories on it?

 

 

I also agree with Jakeblue that whilst those in 1977 are fighting to change their destinies, its what they do that causes things to happen as they do. Like if Jack had just fixed Ben then he would have stayed with Dharma and been nice, but cause he refused (thinking he was changing things) ben ended up with Richard on the path he was always going to take. If that makes sense...

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therefore if the plane never crashed Claire would have had her child in the real world and there would be two versions of Arron roaming around which i dont believe could happen. Walt is the same as when things could change (even though i dont think they do) he is off island and therefore would be unaffected, though the 2004 version of him would be on the plane but as it wouldnt crash there would be two of him in the real world too.

 

Why would the 'real world' be unaffected too? Was this ever stated in Lost and I missed it? I know the island is special but I would think that if something happened to stop people doing stuff (or being born somewhere or something) then that'd affect the 'real world' too and not result in there being 2 of these people just because they're no longer on the island? If the plane never crashed then those versions of the people would cease to exist surely?

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What with all the twists and turns in recent seasons I may well have forgotten certain subtle things that have gone on but this new character that has been introduced - Jacob's 'opposite' is interesting and may well answer a few niggly points that seem to have been left hanging.

 

I read an interesting post on a forum the other day which talked about a tale from the Book of Gensis about two brothers one named Jacob and one named Esau who were constantly fighting with each other from the day they were born, neither were inherently good or evil but each had their own traits of both. The key thing is that they were in conflict with each other all their lives so much so that they didn't really care who got in the way so our Island Folk may just be pawns in their neverending battle.

 

So 'Esau' - if we call him that, is right now in the guise of Locke and in his bid to get one over on Jacob makes Ben stab him. This all makes sense as he promised he would kill him one day. The interesting part is the fact that Esau can make himself appear as other people (dead people) it makes you wonder if it was always him who appeared all those times over the seasons as the different dead folk, Jack's dad for example who (and here's where my memory fails a bit) convinced Claire to stay with him in his little log cabin back in season 4 - if this possibly was Esau then what was his reason for doing that?!!

 

In fact, I've just realised that rather than make sense of any of this I've just made my brain hurt some more! :blink: Can anyone else see anything in this idea of the other man being Esau? Or is anyone more familiar with the original tale and can see how it may apply to our favourite show?

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It does make sense that the guy posing as Locke has been behind all of the apparitions. You could argue that hes been doing this throughout the shows 5 season history to further people along the paths he wanted them to go in order to fulfil his ultimate goal of having Ben stab Jacob. Dont think Jacob is alive or dead in the first place so he hasnt been killed in the traditional sense of the word, afterall he appeared as a spirit in the cabin to Locke and Ben.

 

That said it has just occured to me that back then the spirit asked Locke to 'help him' so maybe that was the other half of the equation giving us a heads up as to what he would ultimately do with Locke in order to get to Jacob.

 

As for the real world, as ive posted before, if things changed and the plane didnt crash this would have a huge ripple effect on the entire world as not only would the Losties lives change but so would evrybody elses and i dont think this is possible. Back when the chopper was returning to the island and it disappeared nothing changed for those in the real world but it did for those on the island, thats why i think if things changed and the plane didnt crash there would be two Arrons and two Walts.

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I really hope that they don't follow the whole 'what if the plane never crashed?' idea, the thought of a dozen or so episodes telling the story of what happened to the Oceanic passengers had they not crashed might be interesting but to me the whole focus should remain on the island still. We only have one season left and yet there is so much still to tie up so it would be wrong to shift the focus to a bunch of 'what if?' episodes.

 

Some of the key things I would like to know (and hopefully these are still mysteries and not resolved things that I've just forgotten!) are: what IS the Smoke Monster?, where did Claire go and who with - was it really her father? is Richard (or Ricardo as he was referred to in the final episode) a sailor from the Black Rock which went to the island all those years ago?, what are the origins of the Dharma Initiative? - we all know now that they were active in the 1970's and that they had a grasp as to what the island was capable from a scientific point of view what with the building of all their different stations, but how aware were they of the other goings on on the island? they must have at least known something for them to have gone to the trouble of building the sonic fence thing to keep the 'hostiles' out. All these temples and statues - who built them?!!

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So here is what I think is happening –

 

There has been throughout the history of lost a theme of good and evil or black and white. There were references to chess early on and of course up until recently we have been led to believe that the Others were evil and the Losties were of course good. This theme continued with the beginning of this years finale, Jacob was wearing white and the other guy (lets call him Locke X for now) was wearing black. Clearly the ship at the beginning was the Black Rock which ended up in the middle of the Island somehow and Locke X made reference to the ship being there because Jacob had brought it there, this didn’t please Locke X and he said he would find a way to kill Jacob, he also said that whenever people were brought to the Island there was always death and destruction and maybe (this isn’t set in stone) the Black Rock crew were involved in the destruction of the statue. I think we should maybe also assume that Jacob went and met the members of the crew before they set sail in much the same way he met the Losties before they landed on the island, it would appear that by meeting people and touching them he is actually setting them on their path of destiny which as we now know leads them to the Island. Does this mean that Jacob is responsible for Danielle and her crew arriving there too? If yes then this was clearly done as her destiny was supposed to be on the island where she would interact with the Losties and play her part in leading them down the correct path.

 

As we now know the Losties destiny is to basically create the accident which will lead their plane to crash in 2004, they have fulfilled this destiny by ending up in 1977 and thinking that they are changing the future they have actually made sure that it will happen as it was meant to. For instance Ben would never had ended up with the Others had Sayid not shot him, the Incident may have been contained had they not increased its impact with the bomb, Miles and Charlotte would never have left the island if the Losties had not convinced Chang they were from the future and he hadn’t then evacuated the island. However what isn’t clear is who is really behind their destiny is it Jacob or is it Locke X. Locke X has been planning Jacobs death for a long time and I believe that he may have been behind all of the visits made to various people in various forms whilst they were on the island (Walt appearing to Locke, Christian Shepard appearing to various people etc) if this is the case then he was making this visits to these people to push them along the destiny path set before them, his ultimate goal being that they would leave the island, get on another plane, crash again and he could then pose as Locke and eventually get Ben to kill Jacob. We already know that Locke X was the one who told Richard to tell Locke that he would have to die to get the others back to the island. If he hadn’t of told him this then Locke would never have tried to hang himself and Ben would not have had the opportunity to finish him off (in a straight struggle my money would be on Locke over Ben everytime). If it is the case that it was Locke X and not Jacob leading the Losties down their destiny path then what part does Jacob play? If it is all about a struggle between Jacob and Locke X then maybe Jacob set the Losties on their path to the island knowing that Locke X would manipulate things and ultimately lead to Jacobs death. At this moment it appears that Locke X has won but of course Jacob did say ‘theyre coming’ this would indicate that someone is on their way (presumably the Losties) and that Jacob knew he was going to die but was prepared to do so because he knew that ultimately the path he had set the Losties on would see them in a position to finish off Locke X and lead to Jacobs victory not a victory for Locke X. Clearly Locke X didn’t know where Jacob was on the island otherwise he could have saved a lot of time and trouble and just taken Ben there directly and done what he had to do, the fact Richard had to lead him there shows he needed guidance in finding Jacob. Maybe the reverse is true and Jacob couldn’t find Locke X in order to be able to deal with him, therefore he went to all this trouble to lead Locke X to him to allow him to believe he had won whilst all the while knowing that once Locke X was revealed ‘they’ would be able to deal with him.

 

There are two clearly defined sides right now, in 2007 you have the ‘good guys’ who have revealed to Richard that Locke is truly dead, they are on the side of Jacob (as is Richard) and on the other side you have Locke X who has Ben on his side. The unknown element of the 2007 crew are the remaining others who have followed Locke X believeing him to be Locke but are you imagine faithful to Richard, therefore which side of the fence do they fall onto. In 1977 there are the remaining Dharma people and the 77 Others, we are still unclear as to which side of this equation are supposed to be good and which are supposed to be evil. The Others would appear to have been collected together over time by Jacob though how and why remains unclear, maybe Jacob is a character that requires contact of a kind or maybe he has to replace each generation of Others with the next, the constant of course being Richard who outside of Jacob appears to be the only person who doesn’t age in any outward fashion. We also as yet have no real clear indication of how the Egyptian aspect of the whole thing has come into play. There has been discussion regarding Egyptian Philosophy online which is great but until this is clearly defined within the world of Lost its all just pie in the sky, but what with the statue, Jacobs weaving and the Hirogliphics its clear that there is an Egyptian theme, though of course Jacob does not look Egyptian in the slightest. You also have to wonder how much of the mythology of the island is known to the Dharma group or how they ever found out about it. For instance once the button wasn’t pushed and the countdown got to zero the numbers turned into Egyptian symbols, this was set by Dharma and cannot just be a coincidence when you think back to the statue and everything else. Maybe the statue was still there when they arrived and from that they got their inspiration, this would mean that they were somehow involved in the destruction of the statue rather than the Black Rock crew (speaking of which, could the ship be where Richard came from or is he from the same source as Jacob). They also clearly know about the weakness of the Smoke Monster and this is why the built the type of fence they did to keep the monster out. As far as how did they discover the island this could be somebody who was banished from the island (like Widmore was) giving them the information (couldn’t be Widmore as Dharma were there before Elosie became pregnant and as we know Widmore is Daniels dad) or alternately maybe it was Locke X in one form or another again battling against the side led by Jacob by bringing a force to stand in the way of Jacobs Others. Maybe Jacob is in tune with the island and Locke X brought the Dharma group there in order to better understand the islands secrets and how he could use this to rid himself of Jacob. Of course however Dharma coming to the island led to the beginning of the Destiny paths of the likes of Ben, Miles, Daniel and Charlotte.

 

Back to ‘theyre coming’ and the Losties returning to 2007. If this does happen then they would surely be aligned against Locke X which would somewhat balance the sides of power assuming the Others of that time remain with Locke X. However now that Locke X has done what he believes he need to do to rid himself of Jacob would he need a ‘side’. Under normal circumstances no but there is clearly something special about the Losties which worries Locke X and therefore having people onside would be very helpful indeed.

 

Most of this has been covered before but it is for my sins my take on things, so I guess im gonna have to wait a while to see what actually happens.

 

Oh and in closing, I don’t believe that the Losties can leave the island until they are at least in 2007. Those that left in 2004 and crashed again in 2007 could leave in 2007 as survivors of another plane crash. They could not land back in 2004 and leave however as they have already done that and this would mean there would be two of them doing the same thing at that time. They also couldn’t leave the island in 1977 or anytime between then and 2007 because this would lead to two versions of themselves being in the real world, the real world version that grew normally until the plane crash of 2004 and the 2007 version of themselves which crashed on the island for the second time and then ended up back in 1977 but didn’t change in age. Similarly those who remained on the island in 2004 (Sawyer and Co) couldn’t leave the island between 1974 (where they ended up) and 2004 as there would be two versions of themselves in the real world. They couldn’t leave between 2004 and 2007 because they have yet to live those years as they never made it past 2004 due to the time skips which I believe for them were all backwards and forwards in time prior to 2004. They could theorectically leave in 2007 as long lost survivors of the original plane crash however be it by jumping to 2007 or by returning to 2004 and then living out the three years until 2007 comes around.

 

I look forward to season 6 with trepidation as it could be brilliant or it could really drop the ball.

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Is Jacob definately the 'good guy'? I thought he was pretty mean to Ben when he said "what about you" with contempt considering Ben started out as a mentally abused kid who then got shot by a crazy Sayid and lost his innocence or whatever thanks to the Others. Plus Jacob's role in Nadia's death was questionable.

 

Plus I thought what the 'dark' guy said at the beginning was true about people coming to the island to fight and destroy. If the dark guy is also the smoke monster and other apparitions he could have been just trying to weed out the bad guys for the sake of a good island life, ie. killing Eko when he wouldn't ask for forgiveness for being a murderer.

Edited by cyberem78

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As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, if the two people we are faced with ARE Jacob and his brother Esau then according to their mythological story then they are both neither good or evil but have multi-faceted personalities and simply 'use' the people around them to aid their long, long conflict against each other.

 

So maybe Jacob did cause the car crash that killed Sayid's wife, but at the same time if he has the ability to see the future then he may simply have known it was going to happen and called Sayid back to the kerb to save him from being hit by the car so that he could travel back to the island to shoot Ben.

 

Maybe Jacob knew that Ben would be the one to stab him all along and so by making sure Sayid lived and got back to the Island to attempt to fulfill his destiny of shooting Ben he may have thought this could change the future and prevent Ben from stabbing him.

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I agree that Jacob would know that Ben was the one who would stab him, but i dodnt think he sent Sayid back as an attempt to stop him. It was always Bens destiny to do what he does and he would never heve become an other if it wasnt for Sayid shooting him, therefore Jacob was saving Sayid merely to send him down his destiny path which would eventually cross with that of Ben.

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I would like the know why Jacob touched everyone when he visited them. Like he was marking them or something.

He touched little kate on the nose, he touched little james when he handed him the pen. Locke when he brought him back to life...anyone got any theories on it?

 

 

I also agree with Jakeblue that whilst those in 1977 are fighting to change their destinies, its what they do that causes things to happen as they do. Like if Jack had just fixed Ben then he would have stayed with Dharma and been nice, but cause he refused (thinking he was changing things) ben ended up with Richard on the path he was always going to take. If that makes sense...

he didn't touch Jack though only handed him a bar of chocolate

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But the handing over holds for a couple of seconds, as if his hand touched Jacks. That's how I saw it anyway.

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But the handing over holds for a couple of seconds, as if his hand touched Jacks. That's how I saw it anyway.

 

Same with Sawyer and the pen.

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Jacob definitely touched them all, I even watched those parts over to check. Whilst I was watching it I noticed, because he touched Kate on the nose, touched Sawyers hand as he passed the pen, he must have touched Sayid when he asked for help, he touched Hurley on the chest in the taxi, he touched Sun and Jin's sides when he was congratulating them, he touched Jack's hand passing the bar and he touched Locke's shoulder.

 

I have only just watched episodes 16 and 17, I recorded them since I didn't have time on Sunday. I can't believe how amazing the episodes were. I was almost in tears towards the end of episode 17 when Sawyer was begging Juliet not to let go. When she did I honestly shouted "No!" at the TV, and got a roll of the eyes from my brother who thought I was a nutcase :blink: But gosh, I couldn't beleive it.

 

With Sayid (sorry if this has already been said, I haven't read every single post in this thread and may have not noticed), did anyone else think that it was his body that Sawyer drank beer with way back in a previous series? It may not have been but the way his body was against the van reminded me of something we had already seen. Correct me if I am wrong, since I haven't watched the previous seasons in AGES so I'm probably mistaken but I'm just wondering.

 

The end - Holy cow :YAHOO: Biggest cliff hanger ever. When Juliet was smacking the bomb with the rock I was on the edge of my seat, quite literally. I don't think I can wait till the next season, it is gonna be a killer!

 

Personally, I am a philosophy student so any links I make to the show are probably way too in depth and I probably read a lot more into the show than I need to, but I was a tad suspicious of the whole 'we can change our destiny and stop the plane from ever crashing' plot. I had this strange theory that it would end where they did not change 'their' destinies, only the destinies of the 'other' them in the world (because obviously they are 30 years younger somewhere in the world); the version of themself that hadn't yet boarded the plane. I thought that the idea of 'what happened, happened' would be what came out of it. No matter what the losties were to do with a bomb or ANYTHING, they can't change what has already happened purely because it is what happens. Ok, so that made no sense but perhaps someone can kind of understand what I am saying...

Edited by Laurenx

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With Sayid (sorry if this has already been said, I haven't read every single post in this thread and may have not noticed), did anyone else think that it was his body that Sawyer drank beer with way back in a previous series? It may not have been but the way his body was against the van reminded me of something we had already seen. Correct me if I am wrong, since I haven't watched the previous seasons in AGES so I'm probably mistaken but I'm just wondering.

 

Na That was Bens father: Roger who was found in the van with a lot of beer. In a previous season where we see what happened to Dharma (Being gassed by the others) we see Ben and his father in a van talking and eventually Ben puts on a gas mask and kills his father.

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Ahh that's it! I remember now! Thanks, I have been wondering about that since I watched the episodes and I was considering rewatching the show just to see what on earth I was on about :D

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I've realised the connection I made with Sayid now - I was thinking about the fact that he was wearing Horace's suit. In a previous season we see a body in Horace's suit dont we? Could it possibly have been Sayid? I don't know, probably not, but it's just a thought.

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