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The latest Prince Harry controversy.


nicky
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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090112/tpl-u...ry-43a8d4f.html

 

He was caught on film referring to one of his army colleagues as a P*** - a derogatory racist slur and non-PC. No malice was intended although the word is a derogatory word no matter what context used and designed and generally used by xenophobes to demean another race. The video footage was taken 3 yrs ago and Hazza has apologised recently after it was found.

 

Kinda reminds me of his grandad.

Edited by nicky
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Its one of these things if me or you did it then we would the punished right away. My mates a Royal Marine and one guy that he was trained with did somthing similer and he got a "beasting" as they put it right away. Its the classic one rule for someone in the public eye and an other for the rest of us. :blink:

Edited by mojoe
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My mates a Royal Marine and one guy that he was trained with did somthing similer and he got a "beasting" as they put it right away.

Really? There have been reports in Harry's defence that racial slurs are common within the military internally and no one bats an eye?

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Let's leave the 'PC' element out of it for now because that's a completely different issue. I think it's a bane to society - it takes away people's rights to voice an opinion or express themselves as they wish, and gives rights where they're not neccessarily due (i.e. where nobody is prepared to take responsibility for what they do - I'm thinking of criminals and their ludicrous demands especially).

 

In terms of what he said, it's really nobody else's business but his and the colleague he was referring to. If he caused offence to that one person or made them feel uncomfortable, then they should discuss these issues like adults. Splashing it across the media and forcing an apology that may not have substance is not helpful.

 

Finally I think that words should be said; let's take back this idea of negative terms - if we take away the stigma then we take away the offence that's caused. I don't think it's uncommon (and know people who use these kind of terms to minorities within their own friendship groups!) and it has alot to do with the context and tone it's said in. And I say all of this as someone who has frends of many different races, ethnic backgrounds and nationalities.

 

If I wanted to, I could kick up a storm about being called a Brit, but I don't because I know it's just a shortened version of my nationality/ethnic background (and it would never make the papers without them screaming racist). People need to stop being oversensitive about what other people are saying and mind their own business - at the end of the day they're words. I'd bet you any money that the people who are making this fuss are white and British...

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Honestly I'm just getting a bit fed up of the media stirring up things lately (and yes, I know they've done it for years!) and forcing a situation out of something that basically wasn't one beforehand.

 

In context or not, it's certainly something you have to be careful of, especially if you're a member of the Royal Family. I don't think they should be forced to act a certain way because of it, nor because they might get 'caught out' by the media - I'm all for them having as normal a life as possible alongside their duties - but it's a sensitive issue that is perhaps best avoided, even just to be sure. Sometimes it's just not worth the possible hassle.

 

It's something that's bound to cause someone offence though, as everything seems to p!ss someone off these days. There's a fine line between being cautious and being forced to live life worrying about offending someone with anything you say. I'm not quite sure how to manage it.

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I can't (well, I suppose I can, given his background) believe that someone in his position would be stupid enough to put it in a public blog. The wrongs and rights of it are a huge issue - I know quite a few squaddies and have heard similar remarks, but I hear just as bad in the town on a Saturday afternoon. For me it comes down to someone who should at least be aware of the public attention trying to engage a brain cell or two, or employing someone to do it on their behalf. Do the palace not check these kind of things before they go out? Also, it's not like this is his first lapse - the guy seems to be generally an idiot!

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I could kick up a storm about being called a Brit, but I don't because I know it's just a shortened version of my nationality/ethnic background (and it would never make the papers without them screaming racist). I'd bet you any money that the people who are making this fuss are white and British...
I don't think you could kick up a fuss about being called a "Brit" though cos it's not derogatory and never was, its just simply short for "British". The word P*** in this case is not just short for Pakistani but also a slur designed (and originally intended) to degrade a certain culture and an ignorant term to group all "Indian people" together regardless of their individuality.

 

I agree with what you said about being his business though but he is a Royal and controversy makes papers sell - if you or I said it, it wouldnt be in the news. And it wasnt just white people making the fuss. In addition to Muslim groups espeially it was also the dad:

 

Khan's father Muhammad Yaqoob Khan Abassi said the remarks were "a disgraceful insult."

 

"When I saw the video I was very, very hurt," he told the Daily Mail. "That word he used is a hate word and should never be used against any Pakistani."

 

Remember these T-shirts? I love them! :blink:

222068-1.jpg

Edited by nicky
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I could kick up a storm about being called a Brit, but I don't because I know it's just a shortened version of my nationality/ethnic background (and it would never make the papers without them screaming racist). I'd bet you any money that the people who are making this fuss are white and British...
I don't think you could kick up a fuss about being called a Brit though cos it's not derogatory and never was, its just simply short for British. The word P*** in this case is not just short for Pakistani but also a slur designed (and originally intended) to degrade a certain culture and an ignorant term to group all "Indian people" together regardless of their individuality.

 

 

It's only degrading because we allow it to be, and that's my point. It's a word, nothing more. We give it the power to hurt by allowing it to mean too much.

 

If people want to group others together and never learn differently then that's their loss. You can't force people to get on (another point that the government seem to have missed completely) you can only ask that they don't go hurling abuse at people or beating them up because of the different things that they are. If this had not been an off the cuff remark but a blantant insult with malicious intent things would be different. But IMO the press are having a field day over nothing.

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I'm not saying i aprove of the use of the word because i honestly don't but it seems this is just another example of the media stiring things up again way to much ! If the man in the video had a problem with the comment im sure he would have said so 3 years ago when it was reccorded. It shouldn't be up to the man's family to say he is upset now, after it's all gone public, that just makes it seem like they're taking advantage of the chance to sell a story

 

although you'd think Harry would be more carefull about the things he says when he's recording himself

Edited by SaRAWR!
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I have quite a few asian friends, and they often use the word "Paki", although normally to refer to the non westernised people within their own community who exhibit "typical" Pakistani customs, dress, attitude, expression or cultural traditions.

 

If someone recorded a conversation between them which was played to the media not knowing they were asian themselves, and was instead attributed to another person, there would be uproar.

 

For me it depends on the context, which no-one really seems to know for sure. If it was an in-joke which is very common indeed with mixed groups, then its just a case of it looking dodgy out of context. If he didn't know this guy and was deliberately being insulting then yeah it was of dubious morality.

 

 

 

As for the other part of the video where he mocks his mate for looking like a "raghead" - it's an obvious reference to the people they are out there to fight against, and not anyone else. If we can happily expect them to get shot at, killed and/or kill these guys, then it's just ludicrous to act all PC when they call them names. If someone shot at me, I'd take the p* out of them at the very least.

 

If a story came about that some soldier saw a guy who walked a bit stiff for a moment in a WWII trench, and mocked that he "looked like a Jerry", we wouldn't bat an eye lid.

 

 

God forbid the video show that a prince is just like the average Joe!

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I think the whole thing is ridiculous. PC brigade jumping on their usual band wagon. The guy he said it to didn't bat an eyelid, and hasn't said anything in response. His parents didn't say anything in 'outrage', just his uncle. Who to be perfectly honest seems like he just wants the attention.

 

I agree with TeamGB. It's only negative because people allow it to be negative. Also, it can't be denied that it's a shortened version of their nationality. Sure, there was a nastier side to it before, and i'm sure it'll be used that way again, but so will words that aren't referring to race and are probably more offensive. What's insulting about having your nationality pointed out to you?

 

There's an advert for the navy currently showing with a scottish guy being nicknamed jock. Where's the difference?

 

People choose to take some things as insults, just as some choose to use them as insults.

 

How do you think the MOWO (Music Of White Origin) awards would go down? I think in some cases it's the PC brigade that need to grow up and realise there's a new generation who for some part at least find the whole race thing a bit ridiculous. Just because they grew up without foreign interaction doesnt mean everyone else did or does. Schools now are filled with cultures and races.

 

However, i would like to add that i think all races should be proud of their heritage. including British, and from my point of view i'd prefer England to celebrate being English much more. We celebrate massively of St Patricks day but St George's day is a much smaller event.

 

Maybe i've gone off on one there.

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it can't be denied that it's a shortened version of their nationality.

 

There's an advert for the navy currently showing with a scottish guy being nicknamed jock. Where's the difference?

 

People choose to take some things as insults, just as some choose to use them as insults.

I don't think "Jock" has ever been a derogatory word though nor a racial slur? P*** maybe a shortened form but it's also primarily known to be derogatory and was originally designed and used to be as such - that fact also cannot be denied. Perhaps times have changed though like you said. Although there are always gonna be people who are offended and remember the word as it used to be known and is still used as such by some. If we used the word at work, in the office or here on the forum then I'm sure we'd be re-primanded if it was reported.

 

If Harry had used the "N word" instead there'd be much more trouble as that is a far more well known "sensitive word". You're right though, the kid chose to not take it as an insult (but then again, I dont think he's commented on the incident) but a large number of his community did. If someone called me a ***** (or even used that word around me) I would not be happy about it, even if no malice was intended. No offence but it's hard to get other people to see that when they have never been an ethnic minoroty nor will they ever be, so how can they pass judgement or tell me how I should feel when they've never been there? But maybe that word is a bit more obvious.

 

Some people are offended, some aren't however it is still a "sensitive word". Could you ever imagine a movie called "Our P*** Friend"?

Edited by nicky
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I'm British and get called a Brit often, does this mean im being racially abused no .

Ive been called Limey, John Bull and Honkey and laughed it all off.

So how is it offensive to call someone from Pakistan anything other than what Harry said.

Thanks Cherie Blair for making the British - foreigners in our own country.

Edited by Lennybear
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Some people keep seeming to miss the part where I said "Brit" has never been a racial slur whereas P*** primarily has and was designed and intended to be used as such and still is by a large number of people.

 

I don't think you could kick up a fuss about being called a Brit though cos it's not derogatory and never was, its just simply short for British. The word P*** in this case is not just short for Pakistani but also a slur designed (and originally intended) to degrade a certain culture and an ignorant term to group all "Indian people" together regardless of their individuality.

 

I don't think you could kick up a fuss about being called a "Brit" though cos it's not derogatory and never was, its just simply short for "British". The word P*** in this case is not just short for Pakistani but also a slur designed (and originally intended) to degrade a certain culture and an ignorant term to group all "Indian people" together regardless of their individuality.

Edited by nicky
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I agree that it has been used as a derogatory word, i don't think that is in doubt. However, the word is only really offensive if a person takes being associated with their nationality as an insult. If you choose to ignore it, eventually it'll die out.

 

Words can change their meaning if people let them. Look at the word gay for example, it started as a term for happy and in good spirits, then changed over time to be associated with a sexuality.

 

You could even take examples from what words are acceptable on tv now. Bitch is now said on a day to day basis on tv shows. That wouldn't have been allowed years ago whilst some of these terms were.

 

Like i said though, i do agree it has been derogatory and still can be, but i would prefer it if newspapers and journalists wouldn't just assume it is meant that way every time anyone uses it.

 

Have to agree with Lennybear though, Nicky says it's hard to explain to people who have never been or will never be an ethnic minority, but i disagree. I think the UK has become so multinational that it has or is becoming a minority in it's own country. This is a totally different point, but i'd like England or any country to remain the people they are. Not in a keep out sort of way, but just if people come to our country they shouldn't expect us to make exceptions for their culture if we dont expect it were we to go to their country.

 

My targets in that point are people who move to this country and then preach against it. Why move here then? and why do we give them benefits?

 

Before anyone says i'm being racist there i'm not. I think if people want to be here then fine, but if they clearly dont then why pay them money to moan about it. It's true of some tax evading, UK born benefit cheats too.

 

rant over

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I don't think "Jock" has ever been a derogatory word though nor a racial slur?

I've heard it used as such, although usually the derogatory nature of its use was demonstrated by the fact that it was prefixed by "f***ing" and suffixed by "b**tard" :D . In that context it was fairly clear that "jock" was distinctly uncomplimentary. On its own however, I'd agree it may or may not be- it depends on usage and tone of voice, more than anything.

P*** maybe a shortened form but it's also primarily known to be derogatory and was originally designed and used to be as such - that fact also cannot be denied. Perhaps times have changed though like you said. Although there are always gonna be people who are offended and remember the word as it used to be known and is still used as such by some. If we used the word at work, in the office or here on the forum then I'm sure we'd be re-primanded if it was reported.

I don't think that it is times that have changed so much as context, in this case. Used in general society, one would say that it is at best insensitive and gauche, and very possibly racist. Within the context of a group of mates, it may have an entirely different meaning and be quite affectionate. Let's face it, in a group of people who have been thrown together and worked together and bonded (and I doubt there's much that induces bonding more than soldiering together in hostile territory), the social norms can get quite distorted. Put another way, I have a very good friend who I have been some very good and bad times with over many years, and who I am very good friends with. He invariably greets me as "you old cu[you can guess the rest]". Now, from the lips of a stranger or even most people I actually know, that would be at least mildly offensive and could even provoke violence and/or arrests in some company. But I know that between us it's purely an accepted form of greeting with no offence meant or taken.

I think that is what is happening here.

If Harry had used the "N word" instead there'd be much more trouble as that is a far more well known "sensitive word".

Although that depends on who says it. I've heard any number of members of the black community use it amongst themselves. Going back to context again, I knew a Sikh guy who was very friendly with a Jamaican guy, and always used to greet him as "hey n*****!", but he wouldn't have addressed anybody else that way except his friend.

You're right though, the kid chose to not take it as an insult (but then again, I dont think he's commented on the incident) but a large number of his community did. If someone called me a ***** (or even used that word around me) I would not be happy about it, even if no malice was intended. No offence but it's hard to get other people to see that when they have never been an ethnic minoroty nor will they ever be, so how can they pass judgement or tell me how I should feel when they've never been there? But maybe that word is a bit more obvious.

 

Some people are offended, some aren't however it is still a "sensitive word".

I once had a south Asian guy working for me who introduced himself and said "My name's actually [hugely long name], which all you white guys can never get right, so just call me P**i". My first thought was that he was winding me up, either to get me to say it and then have me up for racial abuse, or just trying to have a laugh at my expense. Turns out it was neither - he just figured it was the easiest thing to be called, plus he was doing his own little bit to "reclaim" (or at least defuse) the word. I'm afraid that in some ways I was a bit of a chicken and basically used a shortened version of his name (with his permission), as I would have felt very awkward calling him P**i, and as his boss the situation was just far too likely to be taken the wrong way by any visiting outsiders. But he introduced himself the same way to all of his colleagues, and some of them did call him that, once they had got their heads around the concept. (used to make me cringe though).And yes, it wouldn't be right for everybody (on either side of the racial divide).

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I love the fact that issues like this tend to bring out all of the closet racists, the people who get all of their clueless ill-informed views from the front page of the Daily Mail.... I love quotes like "we're a minority in our own country". Ethnic minorities make up 8% of the population of this country. 8%. You think that makes 'us' a minority, you need to go back to school and pay more attention in Math class. Next time you want to go off on one of your rants, I want to hear figures. I want to hear numbers. I want to hear exactly how many 'immigrants' are 'coming into this country and living off benefits'. I want to hear some actual legitimate data that backs up these bizarre views you have, and I want it to come from a reputable source, not some right wing rag, or some pseudo-facist think tank supported by the BNP. Until then, I'll operate under the assumption that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Fair enough?

 

Back on topic ( :angel:), as far as names are concerned, bottom line is this - Black people may well use the N word. And it does have a particular meaning in certain black communities, which isn't relevant here. But, there is no excuse for anyone else using it. There's 150 years and more of highly negative association to that word, and don't use it - ever - it's that simple. Not hard to understand, right?

 

Similar situation with the word "Paki". I don't care that it's short for Pakistani. You don't use it. In the same way, you don't use words like Chink, Gook, Wog, whatever - there is no acceptable context in which to use those terms.

 

What about Jock or Paddy? Well, there is a difference - they don't have such a negative history and connotation attached to them - but to be safe, don't use them. It's not about PC, it's just erring on the side of caution.

 

As far as Prince Harry is concerned, I don't care what the convention is in the Army. He should not be using the term. He should be setting an example.

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I love the fact that issues like this tend to bring out all of the closet racists, the people who get all of their clueless ill-informed views from the front page of the Daily Mail.... I love quotes like "we're a minority in our own country". Ethnic minorities make up 8% of the population of this country. 8%. You think that makes 'us' a minority, you need to go back to school and pay more attention in Math class. Next time you want to go off on one of your rants, I want to hear figures. I want to hear numbers. I want to hear exactly how many 'immigrants' are 'coming into this country and living off benefits'. I want to hear some actual legitimate data that backs up these bizarre views you have, and I want it to come from a reputable source, not some right wing rag, or some pseudo-facist think tank supported by the BNP. Until then, I'll operate under the assumption that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Fair enough?

 

Back on topic (:D), as far as names are concerned, bottom line is this - Black people may well use the N word. And it does have a particular meaning in certain black communities, which isn't relevant here. But, there is no excuse for anyone else using it. There's 150 years and more of highly negative association to that word, and don't use it - ever - it's that simple. Not hard to understand, right?

 

Similar situation with the word "Paki". I don't care that it's short for Pakistani. You don't use it. In the same way, you don't use words like Chink, Gook, Wog, whatever - there is no acceptable context in which to use those terms.

 

What about Jock or Paddy? Well, there is a difference - they don't have such a negative history and connotation attached to them - but to be safe, don't use them. It's not about PC, it's just erring on the side of caution.

 

As far as Prince Harry is concerned, I don't care what the convention is in the Army. He should not be using the term. He should be setting an example.

 

I want facts and figures on every minority's view on the comments. What? you don't have them? Then why are you answering for them?

 

Thanks for telling me what to say and what i'm thinking...

I never want to meet you. You presumptuous a*se.

 

I would like to add another small point that magnifies the stupidity of your ill informed argument. There are no concrete figures on the numbers of immigrants in this country as a large number are illegal and come into the country unlawfully. The people who are here legitimately i have no problem with, unless they join the citizens who lie to the government causing people who do pay to eventually pay more. That doesn't make me racist.

Edited by KB
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He clearly used totally inappropriate racist language and therefore once it came out in the public domain it was quite right that he was severely criticised for it. It cannot be justified and it is disappointing that people were trying to excuse his behaviour. Lets hope he has grown up a little and maybe has a little understanding as to why this has became an issue.

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I hear that the use of the word i guess cannot be typed isnt used anymore according to various people reporting this story.

These people obviously have never been to the certain parts of the north or my home town of Oldham where the phrase "paki" shop is often used without a second thought.

Much like "chinky" in refereance to where you would purchase a portion of egg fried rice.

Edited by vintageSW77
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