chris_mk Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 I've seen a lot of debate on here (and elsewhere) as to what quantifies a guest as 'big'. Being a logical minded person, I thought I'd try and help define it. It's blatantly not a single thing that defines that cultural stature of a guest, but rather a combination. I've suggested a few things below along with a couple of examples. Whilst this process is still partly subjective, I think it's easier to debate one way or another, rather than the usual 'well I've never heard of them/well I don't like anything they've been in type of debate. 1 - Box Office/TV ratings - How successful a career they've had. To get a 10 out of 10, they would have to of had a long career with a lot of sucess (Thinking along the lines of Shatner and Carrie Fisher). Someone can score highly if they are the star of a popular TV show (So David Anders might get a 7 for starring in ALias and Heroes) 2 - Relevancy - How recently has someone appeared in film/on TV. Again, David would score highly here, as Heroes is current, where as Carrie Fisher has been working behind the scenes for many eyars now and would score lower 3 - Fan base - Some stars have been in shows like Buffy or Star Trek, or film franchises like HP or Star Wars which have huge fan bases. Other guests have appeared in good films, but without such a passionate, dedictaed, large fanbase (such as perhaps John Hurt in Hellboy) 4 - Rarity - some guests do lots of events, some are rare signers. This score will change over time, as guests either continue to do rare appearances, or start doing every other event. Whilst a low score means they are common on the convention scene (such as James Masters), this isn't necessarily a bad thing - I LIKE that James makes himself accesable to fans! That said, a rare guiest (scoring a 9 or 10) is likely to be considered a big guest. 5 - Friend of Fans - we all know some guests who don;t just show up and sign... the guests who go the extra mile for the fans and leave you coming away with a big smile (in my personal experience, guests like Christine Rose and George Takei score very highly, because they both make time to make sure you have a good experience meeting them.) Whilst I don;t like to ever bitch about guests, on the other end of the scale, is The Shatner. Obviously, this is the most subjective of the criteria, based on general opinions having met a guest. Anyone got any other criteria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector-man Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 5 - Friend of Fans - we all know some guests who don;t just show up and sign... the guests who go the extra mile for the fans and leave you coming away with a big smile (in my personal experience, guests like Christine Rose and George Takei score very highly, because they both make time to make sure you have a good experience meeting them.) Whilst I don;t like to ever bitch about guests, on the other end of the scale, is The Shatner. Obviously, this is the most subjective of the criteria, based on general opinions having met a guest. That's a "big" guest? I thought that was merely a "fan-friendly" guest? Anwyay you can tell a guest is big by just looking at the buzz their guest annoucment thred causes and how busy they are at the con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_mk Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 5 - Friend of Fans - we all know some guests who don;t just show up and sign... the guests who go the extra mile for the fans and leave you coming away with a big smile (in my personal experience, guests like Christine Rose and George Takei score very highly, because they both make time to make sure you have a good experience meeting them.) Whilst I don;t like to ever bitch about guests, on the other end of the scale, is The Shatner. Obviously, this is the most subjective of the criteria, based on general opinions having met a guest. That's a "big" guest? I thought that was merely a "fan-friendly" guest? Anwyay you can tell a guest is big by just looking at the buzz their guest annoucment thred causes and how busy they are at the con. Eh? Don't follow you? How fan friendly they are (via word of mouth) will affect how popular they are at an event. So sometimes supporting actors and actresses will generate a big 'bump' in anticipation BECAUSE people know that they will have fun with them! The guest announcement threads tend to be full of bickering about whether a guest is 'big' or not... hence my attempt to define it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators DavidB Posted April 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2008 It's very very tricky to define. I absolutely agree with a lot of what you've said up there, but perhaps a few points to pick up on: 1) TV ratings - I think if we got Ken Barlow, even though he's in one of the most watched TV shows in this country, he'd get laughed at! Silly example but you get what I mean in simple terms. 2) Rarity - Again, they could get someone from Coronation Street who has never done a signing before, and they really wouldn't be considered big. Or a lot of these first/only time signers from Star Wars. So yes, the definition of 'big' certainly is hard to exactly pin down, and I don't think we ever will. Some will see a film star as automatically 'bigger' than a TV star. Some consider rarity very important. Others just want someone from RIGHT NOW rather than some old thing. I think there are moments when we can agree though - such as John Hurt for LFACC. Whether people are interested in meeting him or not, to look at his rarity and body of work etc, most should be able to see him as a 'big' guest regardless of their own taste. That's how I try to look at lineups - not really from a personal 'do I like these guests?' perspective, but at the overall 'quality' (again subjective anyway) of the guests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector-man Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) Eh? Don't follow you? How fan friendly they are (via word of mouth) will affect how popular they are at an event. So sometimes supporting actors and actresses will generate a big 'bump' in anticipation BECAUSE people know that they will have fun with them! Really? I've never wanted to meet a guest just cos I heard they'd be nice to me!! If I admire their work I'll meet them - it's as simple as that for me. And I wont meet a fit guest purely cos I fancy her either...I wouldnt pay for an auto anwyay. SM announce certian thread announcment as "big" - they know cons and the guests they get, why cant people just trust their judgement? I've always agreed in their judgement of a guest that was labelled "big". Edited April 27, 2008 by collector-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_mk Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) It's very very tricky to define. I absolutely agree with a lot of what you've said up there, but perhaps a few points to pick up on: 1) TV ratings - I think if we got Ken Barlow, even though he's in one of the most watched TV shows in this country, he'd get laughed at! Silly example but you get what I mean in simple terms. That's why there are several criteria. He would score very highly on the first criteria, but low on the others (whilst the Coronation Street fanbase is huge, they are not the sort who do events to meet Coronation Street stars) 2) Rarity - Again, they could get someone from Coronation Street who has never done a signing before, and they really wouldn't be considered big. Or a lot of these first/only time signers from Star Wars. and again, they would score low in the other criteria. I didn't put the calculation of final score on there. What you do, is score a guest out of 10 on each criteria and then add the scores together and divide by the number of criteria (currently 5) That gives you an average. Someone minor from Star Wars scores 2 for box office (whilst they were in a huge film/films, they aren't known for it.) They score 1 for relevancy (assuming they've not been in anything since the 1980's), they score 10 for fan base (because Staw Wars fans tend to be completists), 10 for rarity (this is the only signing they're ever going to do) and 1 for Friend of fan (there IS no word of mouth on them - they may be lovely, at which point this score will go up AFTER the event.) This gives them a total of 24 and an average of just under 5. I would not categorise anyting under 8 as a 'big' guest. I think there are moments when we can agree though - such as John Hurt for LFACC. Whether people are interested in meeting him or not, to look at his rarity and body of work etc, most should be able to see him as a 'big' guest regardless of their own taste. John Hurt - Box Office - 8 (some great films, superb quality, but not the biggest grossing films in the world - box office is about quantity, not quality). Relevancy - 10. He is appearing in two of this summers anticipated block-busters. Fan Base - 7 - None of his work has any notoriously large and active fan bases, though he gains points for variety of work appealing to many different, smaller fan bases. Rarity - 10 - first time signing, Fan friendly 5 - although he's not signed before, I've already seen people on here talking about how fan friendly he is. This is likely to increase after the event. Total score - 40, average score 8 That's how I try to look at lineups - not really from a personal 'do I like these guests?' perspective, but at the overall 'quality' (again subjective anyway) of the guests. Thats all when and good from a corporate, defending Showmasters, point of view.... but we're talking more about a line up which is going to get people off their arses to actually go to the show and that's ALL about do I like these guests. Eh? Don't follow you? How fan friendly they are (via word of mouth) will affect how popular they are at an event. So sometimes supporting actors and actresses will generate a big 'bump' in anticipation BECAUSE people know that they will have fun with them! Really? I've never wanted to meet a guest just cos I heard they'd be nice to me!! If I admire their work I'll meet them - it's as simple as that for me. And I wont meet a fit guest purely cos I fancy her either...I wouldnt pay for an auto anwyay. SM announce certian thread announcment as "big" - they know cons and the guests they get, why cant people just trust their judgement? I've always agreed in their judgement of a guest that was labelled "big". If you were collecting main character Lost autos, then it's possible you might have been swung to getting Sam Anders auto because you heard that he was a really nice bloke and a great guest. It might just be enough to convince people who are considering an auto from a guest. No, I'm not suggesting it would convicne YOU to get his auto if you weren't a Lost or Sam fan! People AREN'T trusting their judgement, because the term 'big' is so utterly subjective. That's why it creates some negative comments when a 'big' guest is announced and some people don't like it. Edited April 27, 2008 by chris_mk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector-man Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 People AREN'T trusting SM's judgement, because the term 'big' is so utterly subjective. That's why it creates some negative comments when a 'big' guest is announced and some people don't like it. "Some people don't like it"? Well then those people need to grow up and stop crying like a bitch! That's subjective too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_mk Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 People AREN'T trusting SM's judgement, because the term 'big' is so utterly subjective. That's why it creates some negative comments when a 'big' guest is announced and some people don't like it. "Some people don't like it"? Well then those people need to grow up and stop crying like a bitch! That's subjective too. I would... but sadly that's know as 'flaming' and is generally frowned upon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobd_uk Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 At the end of the day, I (and most others) already know which types of guests we're going to meet because of what we like. I am fully aware that (as an example) Teryl Rothery is not as big a name as Leonard Nimoy. But I'd still see Teryl and not Leonard because I like SG1, but not ST. Anyone with any sense of objectification should be able to tell who is a "big" name based on their work and it's popularity even if they don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_mk Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 Anyone with any sense of objectification should be able to tell who is a "big" name based on their work and it's popularity even if they don't like it. Except there's at least one person who didn't know who Carrie Fisher or William Shatner were!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobd_uk Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Anyone with any sense of objectification should be able to tell who is a "big" name based on their work and it's popularity even if they don't like it. Except there's at least one person who didn't know who Carrie Fisher or William Shatner were!! Yeah I saw that one. Each to their own, although it is hard to believe that you can be a sci-fi fan and overlook those two! Imdb is the answer - I always look up people when they're announced and I don't know them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators DavidB Posted April 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2008 Thats all when and good from a corporate, defending Showmasters, point of view.... but we're talking more about a line up which is going to get people off their arses to actually go to the show and that's ALL about do I like these guests. And from the point of view of someone that also spends money at these events, so please don't forget that And also, a lot of people don't just come to these events for the guests anyway, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme2020uk Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Some go for the company lol. A wee day out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector-man Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Except there's at least one person who didn't know who Carrie Fisher or William Shatner were!! Yeah I saw that one. Each to their own, although it is hard to believe that you can be a sci-fi fan and overlook those two! I wouldnt call them a sci-fi fan then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizzy Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 I really get frustrated when someone doesn't know who the Shatner or patrick stewart is... and some people say they've never even heard of trek! That is appauling, how can you have not even heard of something like that lol? Tho I'd agree some may not have seen them, each to their own I guess... For me, I've not seen any of John Hurt's stuff, but Patrick and Malcom are big to me. But then again, I think "big" will also come down a LOT to personal taste and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_mk Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 Thats all when and good from a corporate, defending Showmasters, point of view.... but we're talking more about a line up which is going to get people off their arses to actually go to the show and that's ALL about do I like these guests. And from the point of view of someone that also spends money at these events, so please don't forget that And also, a lot of people don't just come to these events for the guests anyway, so... Do you mind not rolling your eyes at me? I was responding to your point (which you hadnily edited out). How often do you go to events where you're not interested in meeting the guests and actually spend money on SM stuff? I would suggest teh vast majority go for the guests.... if it were JUST to meet friends and like-minded people, then they would either go to weekend conventions instead (which are far more condusive to meeting attendees) or just arrange to go away for a weekend themselves. Except there's at least one person who didn't know who Carrie Fisher or William Shatner were!! Yeah I saw that one. Each to their own, although it is hard to believe that you can be a sci-fi fan and overlook those two! I wouldnt call them a sci-fi fan then. Doesn't matter.... these shows aren't JUST for Sci Fi fans!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators DavidB Posted April 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2008 Do you mind not rolling your eyes at me? I was responding to your point (which you hadnily edited out). How often do you go to events where you're not interested in meeting the guests and actually spend money on SM stuff? I would suggest teh vast majority go for the guests.... if it were JUST to meet friends and like-minded people, then they would either go to weekend conventions instead (which are far more condusive to meeting attendees) or just arrange to go away for a weekend themselves. It's the 'Showmasters supporting' stuff I was rolling my eyes at - my opinion doesn't have to come down to the fact that I'm a moderator, as I spend my money at these shows too, so I have the perspective of a customer just as much as I do whatever role I have on here. All I was saying was that I can see when a lineup is 'good' - regardless of if it's good FOR ME or not - and that doesn't always have to come from a personal perspective, just like whether a guest is 'big' or not. And I'm not saying people don't go for the guests - I said not just for the guests. A lot of the time it's a mixture of guests, merchandise, friends etc. So that's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector-man Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 I really get frustrated when someone doesn't know who the Shatner or patrick stewart is... and some people say they've never even heard of trek! Do you mean me? I was taking the **** when I said that in the other thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizzy Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 I really get frustrated when someone doesn't know who the Shatner or patrick stewart is... and some people say they've never even heard of trek! Do you mean me? I was taking the **** when I said that in the other thread hehe, no I could tell what you meant lol I meant people I know in "the real world" who I talk to... when they ask what the shows are like that I go to, and I say I've met Shatner and Patrick, and they don't know who they are, I don't bother to say other names lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageSW77 Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) Personally the back log of quality of their work makes a "big" guest in my book Sometimes the "big" folk are folk im not interested in say Patrick Stewart for instance...he has had a long varied career with many worthy credits to his name so id say he was "big". Malcolm McDowall,John Hurt and Tom Savini(who Showmasters should be applauded for getting) who i AM a fan of have earned the "big" status due to amongst others credits in A Clockwork Orange,Alien,The Elephant Man,IF,Dawn Of The Dead,Friday 13th,Creepshow etc etc etc and who have been around since the 70s whereas the large majority of Heroes "stars" on the other hand are here today gone tommorow types . SURE some of the Heroes types may go onto bigger things but you only have to look at the 2nd tier players in past shows like ANGEL,BUFFY,NEW TREK and countless other forgotten sci fi and fantasy shows that this may be their only big "gig". I do Hope LFACC isnt overan with that lot. This afterall is a Film and Comic con isnt it???? Heroes aint no movie and as for the comic....... Edited April 27, 2008 by vintageSW77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators DavidB Posted April 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2008 They'd be stupid to restrict themselves by the name though .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collector-man Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 They'd be stupid to restrict themselves by the name though .. But those big Heroes guests can only restrict themselves to that particular name cos that's the only thing they're known for. As vintageSW77 said, they're here today gone tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators DavidB Posted April 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2008 I'm talking about Showmasters restricting themselves to the 'Film and Comic' part of the event name, sorry. And as for Heroes guests and only being know for that - well, if that ends up being true, surely the sensible business thing to do is get them while they're popular? Which is exactly what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizzy Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 I'm talking about Showmasters restricting themselves to the 'Film and Comic' part of the event name, sorry. You confused me with that too lol Tho it doesn't take much to confuse me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_mk Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 Do you mind not rolling your eyes at me? I was responding to your point (which you hadnily edited out). How often do you go to events where you're not interested in meeting the guests and actually spend money on SM stuff? I would suggest teh vast majority go for the guests.... if it were JUST to meet friends and like-minded people, then they would either go to weekend conventions instead (which are far more condusive to meeting attendees) or just arrange to go away for a weekend themselves. It's the 'Showmasters supporting' stuff I was rolling my eyes at - my opinion doesn't have to come down to the fact that I'm a moderator, as I spend my money at these shows too, so I have the perspective of a customer just as much as I do whatever role I have on here. All I was saying was that I can see when a lineup is 'good' - regardless of if it's good FOR ME or not - and that doesn't always have to come from a personal perspective, just like whether a guest is 'big' or not. And I'm not saying people don't go for the guests - I said not just for the guests. A lot of the time it's a mixture of guests, merchandise, friends etc. So that's all I'm saying. Do you seriously think your posts are subjective in any way?!? You don't make posts that are criticising in any way (constructive or otherwise). All you do is defend Showmasters blindly, even when they do occasionally stuff things up and then you annoy posters who are trying to MAKE constructive criticism or suggestions. I have no idea if your posts have anything to do with you being a moderator, a friend to Showmasters or if you're just faithful sheep who can see no wrong, but it's VERY frustrating when every suggestion or negative comment is blindly shot down by you. I KNOW I'm not the only one who thinks this, I've seen you take a lot of flack about it before. The worst bit is that YOUR posts end up being negative because you are so unreceptive to change. You aren't able to judge a line up as good or bad, because they're ALL good to you... that's not unbiased!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now