97 replies to this topic

[Lukara]

It's just crossed my mind that I would much prefer owning a digital copy of all the photographs of me with the Captains (and possibly all the other guests).

Is it possible to get that? CDs nowadays cost next to nothing :)
or we could bring our own memory sticks or blank discs....

[DavidB]

This is something that has been considered but never implemented at previous Showmasters events, so I wouldn't expect it.

[Quagmire]

DavidB, on Apr 24 2012, 08:44 PM, said:

This is something that has been considered but never implemented at previous Showmasters events, so I wouldn't expect it.

Doubt that that will ever happen. The photo is copyright of the photographer and if you get the copy then all rights are removed. It's a tricky subject. Trust me been there, done that.

[Lukara]

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 08:56 PM, said:

DavidB, on Apr 24 2012, 08:44 PM, said:

This is something that has been considered but never implemented at previous Showmasters events, so I wouldn't expect it.

Doubt that that will ever happen. The photo is copyright of the photographer and if you get the copy then all rights are removed. It's a tricky subject. Trust me been there, done that.

that sucks. Scanning the pic will never be good enough to blow up to say an A3. Oh well.

Thank you for your replies  

[Quagmire]

Quote

that sucks. Scanning the pic will never be good enough to blow up to say an A3. Oh well.

Take it to a photographer. They have better equipment which can blow up an original to whatever size you want. You shouldn't lose much quality and you'll get a digital image.

[Lukara]

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 09:32 PM, said:

Quote

that sucks. Scanning the pic will never be good enough to blow up to say an A3. Oh well.

Take it to a photographer. They have better equipment which can blow up an original to whatever size you want. You shouldn't lose much quality and you'll get a digital image.

Better than a standard scanner?? Thank you! you've made me very happy  

[TerraHawk]

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 09:32 PM, said:

Take it to a photographer. They have better equipment which can blow up an original to whatever size you want. You shouldn't lose much quality and you'll get a digital image.

As someone who's done scanning for a living for the past 10 years - books, paintings, photos, artwork, I can actually say, to be honest no, if you were working from a perfect brand new photo the scanners themselves aren't that special. Larger and faster perhaps.

But a decent flatbed at max resolution can give you equally good results as a £3000 scanner. If you know how to use it.

But you can't recreate the resolution that the digital photo would contain.

Edited by TerraHawk, 24 April 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[TommyT]

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 08:56 PM, said:

The photo is copyright of the photographer

Correct.

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 08:56 PM, said:

and if you get the copy then all rights are removed

Please quote me legislation or case law on that one. I can buy digitally perfect copies of digital audio or video recordings - doesn't mean that the rights are removed.

Edited by TommyT, 24 April 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Rockstar6662]

TommyT, on Apr 24 2012, 10:31 PM, said:

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 08:56 PM, said:

The photo is copyright of the photographer

Correct.

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 08:56 PM, said:

and if you get the copy then all rights are removed

Please quote me legislation or case law on that one. I can buy digitally perfect copies of digital audio or video recordings - doesn't mean that the rights are removed.

I think you are correct that the purchase of anything like a photo, music, video etc doesn't give a transfer of copyright unless you buy the rights with the item. It's for your own personal use but you have no rights to do anything else with it and copyright remains with the original person, in this case the photographer.

That's my understanding but the whole thing about getting digital copies has been discussed in another thread and keeps cropping up before each event. It's not something SM have offered so far although I understand you can get such files from events in the US, so there must be a way of doing it that works for everyone.

[JacknDaniel]

Quagmire, on Apr 24 2012, 08:56 PM, said:

DavidB, on Apr 24 2012, 08:44 PM, said:

This is something that has been considered but never implemented at previous Showmasters events, so I wouldn't expect it.

Doubt that that will ever happen. The photo is copyright of the photographer and if you get the copy then all rights are removed. It's a tricky subject. Trust me been there, done that.

It's definitely not that aspect of it that is a problem. I've had digital copies of my photos sent to me by at least 3 other organisers for other events, and it's never been a problem. Most of them have even sent me them for nothing.

[Quagmire]

Quote

Please quote me legislation or case law on that one. I can buy digitally perfect copies of digital audio or video recordings - doesn't mean that the rights are removed.

OK, this is getting complicated and I'm not sure if it cover digital or not but the assumtion would be yes unless explicately told (just safer that way too)



Under law, it is the photographer who will own copyright on any photos he/she has taken, with the following exceptions:

• If the photographer is an employee of the company the photos are taken for, or is an employee of a company instructed to take the photos, the photographer will be acting on behalf of his/her employer, and the company the photographer works for will own the copyright.
  
• If there is an agreement that assigns copyright to another party.

In all other cases, the photographer will retain the copyright, if the photographer has been paid for his work, the payment will be for the photographer’s time and typically an allocated number of prints. The copyright to the photos will remain with the photographer, and therefore any reproduction without permission would be an infringement of copyright.



Copyright in a photograph lasts for 70 years from the end of the year in which the photographer dies. A consequence of this lengthy period of existence of the copyright is that many family photographs which have no market value, but significant emotional value, remain subject to copyright, even when the original photographer cannot be traced, has given up photography, or died (a problem known as copyright orphan). In the absence of a licence, it will be an infringement of copyright in the photographs to copy them. As such, scanning old family photographs to a digital file for personal use is prima facie an infringement of copyright.



Hope this helps.

[Lukara]

Sometimes laws can be absurd. If things are for personal use and one has paid for the privilege of owning a photograph by X or Y photographer (just like owning a CD by a band), I'd like to be able to use the photograph (again for personal use, like the CD) however I see fit. So if I want to blow it up to A3 or even A2 and use it as wallpaper on my house walls, I should be allowed to do that, as I have purchased the photo and it's my face in there.  

I do however understand and totally agree with the limitation of reproduction/use in commercial situations.

Obviously the world of photography has to catch up at some point but I doubt it will be in time for the con.

[JacknDaniel]

I repeat though, i've had digital copies sent to me by several other organisers in the past, so it can't be a big problem.

The only reason I could see with SM not doing it so far is because of the sheer number of photo shoots that they do, if they got through thousands at one event, and everyone wanted digital copies sent out to them, yeah I could see it being a bit of a nightmare, but I really don't think the problem is anything to do with copyright

[Quagmire]

Lukara, on Apr 25 2012, 11:33 AM, said:

Sometimes laws can be absurd. If things are for personal use and one has paid for the privilege of owning a photograph by X or Y photographer (just like owning a CD by a band), I'd like to be able to use the photograph (again for personal use, like the CD) however I see fit. So if I want to blow it up to A3 or even A2 and use it as wallpaper on my house walls, I should be allowed to do that, as I have purchased the photo and it's my face in there.  

I do however understand and totally agree with the limitation of reproduction/use in commercial situations.

Obviously the world of photography has to catch up at some point but I doubt it will be in time for the con.

I'm sure you can go ahead and get it blown up and nobody would say anything. As for the blowing up bit - when I got a piece of a photo blown up, It was not done on a scanner. The photo shop had an enlarging kit which was basically taking another photo of a part of the original photo (i had lost the negative). Much better results than getting a scan. It was a few years ago now though. And if you are able to get a digital copy (which I would like also), try and get the RAW format and not just the JPG as it holds all the other information you need manipulate the photo without loosing the quality if you just manipulated the jpg

Edited by Quagmire, 25 April 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[anam]

Quagmire, on Apr 25 2012, 10:51 AM, said:

Quote

Please quote me legislation or case law on that one. I can buy digitally perfect copies of digital audio or video recordings - doesn't mean that the rights are removed.

OK, this is getting complicated and I'm not sure if it cover digital or not but the assumtion would be yes unless explicately told (just safer that way too)



Under law, it is the photographer who will own copyright on any photos he/she has taken, with the following exceptions:

• If the photographer is an employee of the company the photos are taken for, or is an employee of a company instructed to take the photos, the photographer will be acting on behalf of his/her employer, and the company the photographer works for will own the copyright.
  
• If there is an agreement that assigns copyright to another party.

In all other cases, the photographer will retain the copyright, if the photographer has been paid for his work, the payment will be for the photographer’s time and typically an allocated number of prints. The copyright to the photos will remain with the photographer, and therefore any reproduction without permission would be an infringement of copyright.



Copyright in a photograph lasts for 70 years from the end of the year in which the photographer dies. A consequence of this lengthy period of existence of the copyright is that many family photographs which have no market value, but significant emotional value, remain subject to copyright, even when the original photographer cannot be traced, has given up photography, or died (a problem known as copyright orphan). In the absence of a licence, it will be an infringement of copyright in the photographs to copy them. As such, scanning old family photographs to a digital file for personal use is prima facie an infringement of copyright.



Hope this helps.

That is absurd. This is not original photography. He is PAID for this specific purpose. Copyright Act states that if a photo is commissioned for 'private or domestic' purposes, then the client will be the first owner of copyright. In this case the organizer owns it and not the photographer. I would request showmaster to just have a mechanism of transferring the digital photo. When I visited Merlin in Warwick Castle, we were given the option to opt for a digital copy for additional £10. They copied the photo to a USB rubber bracelet. It was only 256MB and £10 was too must for it but hey we wanted it and there was a way and we were happy to pay that amount for a full resolution digital copy. It doesn't take much time or effort and the organizers make more money out of it. In this digital age where we upload everything to Flickr and Facebook, this is a must! Gee! This is a Star Trek convention, we must boldly go where no one has gone before!

[DavidB]

anam, on Apr 25 2012, 04:34 PM, said:

It doesn't take much time or effort and the organizers make more money out of it. In this digital age where we upload everything to Flickr and Facebook, this is a must! Gee! This is a Star Trek convention, we must boldly go where no one has gone before!

As Showmasters have been doing photo shotos at events/cons for a number of years now and only ever offered a printed version, I would suggest there's certainly time and effort that would need to go into it. They need to consider the logistics and finances of it before taking it on, and there must be a good reason why they haven't before.

[BeatrixKiddo88]

But with thousands of photos over the weekend, logistically how will the right people get the right pics/USB without taking a stupid amount of time to stand there with everyone.

You cant tell whats on a USB from the outside, and in the photo there is no name or ID number. And there is no rigidly set order to the photos (as people could turn up late or miss it entirely) so how would they know which photos to group together onto each USB?

And even with doing it by looking at faces, that would take an eternity! Either you'd need hundreds of staff all with a laptop/computer to go through and match faces and put them together in folders/onto USBs or have the same system with with you going up and picking yourself out of hundreds of faces. Each version would take way too long and way too much staff and tech.

And it would be the same with them being mailed out after. You;d have to have people working on it for weeks after looking at a pic of you and then finding the ones that matched, putting them on a USB/email and then sending them off. And then you need staff at the event to take down people's pics and details so they can be sent off.

And hell, from a customer stand-point I'd much rather scan an image in at home for free (as 99% of people do) than pay £10 extra for practically the same thing (quality issues aside). Even if this was implimented, I'd never bother at that sort of price. For that price I'd rather it was framed for me than digital


Any sort of rights issues aside, although that is why SM dont do it, the logistical and staffing and monitary and time-consuming issues around the digital versions make it impossible, especially for an event of this size or of say the size of LFCC or MK.

The only event type I could sort of see it working at is one of ME's weekenders, where the average attendance is around 250 people. That is a much more managable number and could possibly be done after the event.


So yeah, as with every other time this has been brought up, the thread is sort of a moot point. It wont happen for a long time, if ever, and especially not at a huge event like STL.

[anam]

BeatrixKiddo88, on Apr 25 2012, 04:47 PM, said:

But with thousands of photos over the weekend, logistically how will the right people get the right pics/USB without taking a stupid amount of time to stand there with everyone.

You cant tell whats on a USB from the outside, and in the photo there is no name or ID number. And there is no rigidly set order to the photos (as people could turn up late or miss it entirely) so how would they know which photos to group together onto each USB?

And even with doing it by looking at faces, that would take an eternity! Either you'd need hundreds of staff all with a laptop/computer to go through and match faces and put them together in folders/onto USBs or have the same system with with you going up and picking yourself out of hundreds of faces. Each version would take way too long and way too much staff and tech.

And it would be the same with them being mailed out after. You;d have to have people working on it for weeks after looking at a pic of you and then finding the ones that matched, putting them on a USB/email and then sending them off. And then you need staff at the event to take down people's pics and details so they can be sent off.

And hell, from a customer stand-point I'd much rather scan an image in at home for free (as 99% of people do) than pay £10 extra for practically the same thing (quality issues aside). Even if this was implimented, I'd never bother at that sort of price. For that price I'd rather it was framed for me than digital


Any sort of rights issues aside, although that is why SM dont do it, the logistical and staffing and monitary and time-consuming issues around the digital versions make it impossible, especially for an event of this size or of say the size of LFCC or MK.

The only event type I could sort of see it working at is one of ME's weekenders, where the average attendance is around 250 people. That is a much more managable number and could possibly be done after the event.


So yeah, as with every other time this has been brought up, the thread is sort of a moot point. It wont happen for a long time, if ever, and especially not at a huge event like STL.

They would not obviously have the USBs ready. It takes less time to copy a file to a USB drive then to  show you a photo, put it in an envelop and pass it on to you. With your VQ ticket no they can just scan the barcode and click a single button to copy the right photo to the USB. It takes about 9 seconds for the whole process. Since not everyone would not be opting for it, I don't think it would put that much burden on resource. As I said, times have changed, digital print with high quality hold more value than a traditional print which can get lost, fade etc. I would not mind paying extra for a digital copy. Everyone has their choice :)

Actually I would not mind going online and download the digital photos later when the convention is finished just like how we buy tickets.

[etmuse]

Quote

With your VQ ticket no they can just scan the barcode and click a single button to copy the right photo to the USB.

If photoshoots at this event run anything like at other SM events, there is no 'barcode' on the photoshoot ticket to scan, and also no way of automatically matching up a photo taken with an individual ticket - even if tickets did have a barcode, and those were scanned on entrance to the photoshoot, anyone who had a photo retaken (due to blinking etc) would then mess up the entire system after them.

And even if not everyone opted for it - with, say, 2 photo areas running across the 3 days of the event, at the usual 3-400 photos/hour rate the photgraphers get through, that is easily 12,000 photos or more. Even if only 20% of people want a digital copy on USB, that's ~2400 photos to be copied. And 9 seconds is a little optimistic, tbh. (Take photo ticket, sort out any payment, plug in USB, wait for computer to recognise USB, copy photo, eject and hand back USB... yeah that's probably at least 30 seconds there) 2400 photos to copy at 30 seconds each = an extra 20 hours of work to be done across the event.

The issue that has been raised before with having the photos online to request is that of making sure no one tries to buy a photo of someone else. This comes into play especially when there are children involved.

Edited by etmuse, 26 April 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[RickGreerUK]

Just like to add that I think Digital versions of the photo should be a relatively simple affair and really should be added. I'd hate to have my print accidentally bent on the train home and that's £25-£40 down the drain.

There are numerous ways to do it, Disney have a great system. You register a card to yourself and then whenever you have a picture taken, throughout the whole day, the photographer simply scans the card (takes seconds) and then at the end of the day you can go check all your prints. Have them put on a USB stick etc.

I'd prefer to just have the digital version then a print! My photos go on my PC/Facebook/iPad. I have maybe 1 or 2 in actual print, all my old photos have been scanned into my PC, sorted in Picasa and the originals destroyed.

A low-tech solution might be better than a whole system, though it seems odd such a big company wouldn't have one. The photos are transferred to a PC somewhere. Simply write the name of the file (or create a new code) on the back of the photo, when I pick my photo up, I give someone my e-mail address. They have the photo number and my e-mail address, they can send them out within a few days of the event.

Or as someone else said, I say, this is my print, can I have the digital version for a fiver extra please. They transfer it to a 256mb drive, should take about 30 seconds and they get paid for the additional service. Everyone's a winner!