115 replies to this topic

[hobbitfanatic]

I think some events being cut out would help.
I live in leeds so when you had the manchester events I always went to them and loved the fact that their was one close to me.
I could tell they we're getting a small number of goers though. So wasn't surprise when they stopped.
You do have to weigh things up e.g travel tickets to london are always going to be cheaper because there is a lot more offers and ways to get there.
So even though MK is closer to me I'm more likely to go to london event for the day as it's so much easier to get there and cheaper.
Of course I know this is not the same for everyone and also hotel etc is going to be more money.
I don't think you should ever stop doing the MK events.
Maybe the london ones need to be cut down a bit.
I think some of the cons that have 2 a year need to be cut down to one.
I'm not talking about canceling them all people love those events.
I just think it makes sense for many people will come to one event then 2 as most people can only afford to do so many events a year and to book time off work as well.

[elullatook]

My thoughts...as someone who has been going to cons for longer than i want to admit.


I love the big mixed cons like LFCC..( but hate the fact that it is in July )...I love the range of guests and dealers that you get. Also i can take my daughter with me now.

MK i will only go to, as it is such a schlep to get there, if the guest are amazing.


Individual cons are okay if they are about what you are into. Though why people keep banding True Blood and Being Human with Twilight i will never know.


The trouble with the set show cons is of course the cost. I signed up to the BH con last year and was really upset that it folded...the line up was fab. But then you got the stars for LFCC and all was forgiven.

So what is the answer...

If you only had the big mixed cons i would go to as many as i could...even for just one guest. But because of the individual show cons that i want to attend..( Bitten and LOTR )...that means that i have to be very picky..and my daughter misses out.


PS...would also love to have a west country venue..ie Bristol.

Keep up the good work...and Live Long and Prosper...Oh how sad am i....

[TerraHawk]

TurkFox, on Feb 1 2011, 01:45 AM, said:

there won't be a cosplay event at MK because most cosplayers will be elsewhere, myself included.

I didn't even know there was a clash then too. I was thinking of November. When and event that has tradtionally been held that weekend for years, now has a EMS rival.

showmasters, on Feb 1 2011, 02:23 AM, said:

well how am i to know which events will work and which will not ? with out trying to run them ?

i had 9 guests to a Being Human event with all but one main cast , were the fans flocked to meet just to main cast my Birmingham Collectormania show , so a full on con with 9 cast for i think it was £60 odd a ticket should have sold out only sold 56 tickets , so how do you know its going to work or not ?  

But you were also appealing to the fan community. The fan community that knew that the NFI did screenings with the main cast that were better value than that; all those flocking fans had already met two of the three main cast, and you then gave them the same two, rather than the third. Your flock here were saying book him and they'd go, but you didn't.

Incidentally those two were Dr Who guests as well - I got their autos two or three times each for that at LFCC, rather than start on another show.

showmasters, on Feb 1 2011, 02:32 AM, said:

TerraHawk, on Feb 1 2011, 12:41 AM, said:

The Big events need to be events. Look at the US San Diego Comic Con - it's world famous. They don't have one of them every 2 months do they?

well yes they do there is not just SDCC my friend there is at least 1 big con in the us every month you may not know about them or there names but they are there .

also its not just down to me to only run one event a month in fact some other promotors put on events on the same month or even on the same day , i am not going to  go into it on here but we book a date and some times other promotors ring the hotel we use to put up the guest to find out when we have it booked to fine out the date of the next event we plan to run and had put there event on the same weekend , why who knows but this has happened twice in the last two yeas its very boring , and nuts , so we can only look after our events and if we only ran one event a year the other promotors would just run more so its not just down to us .

I know there are other events in US, but the US is a little bigger than the UK. Are they all run by the same organiser?

I seem to remember you booked the NEC Hilton for Collectomania MIdlands the same weekend as other the local very event, before you had to change your plans. So you admit that idea was boring - and nuts?

Maybe they ring up to find the next weekend they can book it up? Other organisers use the Hilton too.

[DavidB]

TerraHawk, on Feb 1 2011, 09:47 AM, said:

But you were also appealing to the fan community. The fan community that knew that the NFI did screenings with the main cast that were better value than that; all those flocking fans had already met two of the three main cast, and you then gave them the same two, rather than the third. Your flock here were saying book him and they'd go, but you didn't.

Incidentally those two were Dr Who guests as well - I got their autos two or three times each for that at LFCC, rather than start on another show.

See, I don't agree with this. If you take into account things like that, then surely you need to think about stage doors, premieres, store signings etc. They are "better value" because you get to meet people for free! And if an event organiser starts thinking about all of that, then surely they'd not get many 'big guests' because they'd tend to be the ones that would go to such things.

And yet I've seen time and again that people are willing to go to signing events and conventions for the (mostly) guaranteed opportunity to get an autograph/photo with someone. It's a completely different situation, and I don't think they can think "oh there's a screening somewhere so we won't bother" because there's often many willing to do both, or that don't WANT to go to things like that.

I realise you're trying to put things into context but if we considered all of those types of things as reasons not to run events or get guests then I'm not quite sure we'd have much left.

[CosmicAvatar]

I'm torn.  I love the number and variety of events, but too many in one year does dreadful things to the bank balance.  I think a fair point was made about possibly dialling back on the number of events at the moment.  We're all feeling the pinch.  On the other hand, if you bring the guests people want, then they'll spend the money.  Including me.

Personally, I like the locations of London and Milton Keynes for signing events and Northampton for conventions, mainly as they're within a reasonable distance for me, and because of all the other facilities within easy reach.  The Birmingham Metropole is lovely, but very expensive, and there's not an awful lot of stuff available nearby if one doesn't want to eat lunch/dinner there, with car park charges kicking in as soon as one drives further afield.  That's my own experience, so other peoples' mileage may vary.

Other stuff: considerations have to be made about clashes with other things, e.g. certain events which will adversely affect promotional prospects (as per Housebroken), holidays (Collectormania London Nov '10), filming schedules, etc.  The more events one runs, the more clashes there are going to be.  Having said that, running an event at the same weekend as most other convention organizers isn't necessarily a problem, so long as one is aware of what other events are going on, as attendees may be forced to choose, and you guys probably have a good idea by now as to what fanbases overlap.  (I personally only attend SM/ME events, but I am probably in the minority.)  I also agree that multi-show conventions run the risk of diluting attendee interest more than combining it.  I signed up for Abrams Inc and Roadhouse 2 because I do like all the shows concerned, although I was only really interested in one or two, and would probably not have attended a convention solely for the others.

I can see the point about avoiding weekend conventions which aren't money-makers like LFCC and CMK until the economy settles, (although, as aforementioned, how do you know?  One starter con might sell out, the next might not sell half as much, and vice versa).  Personally, I love the cons and try to attend as many as I can.

That probably wasn't helpful at all...

[1of2]

JaneDoe, on Feb 1 2011, 08:39 AM, said:

I will second this! Or Bristol! The far south west of the UK is not an easy place to travel from.

Which highlights the problem. I would love an event in Bristol. However I can't think of a suitable venue in the vicinity of the public transport routes. Is there one?

[chrismk]

MikeDonovan, on Jan 31 2011, 11:40 PM, said:

Alright Jason, I'll be brutally honest (and a lot of people aren't going to like this, but so be it).

First, locations. There will be people on here who will happily talk about 'let's have an event in Northampton!', or 'How about another event in Glasgow?'. Bottom line, in this environment, there is only one thing that's important - and that's whether or not an event is economically viable. And an event in Stoke is not going to be economically viable, you know it, I know it, and in their hearts, they know it too. I find it amazing that you ran an event in Glasgow and made money. Maybe it didn't make money - I don't know. And that brings me on to my next point.

Now, the amount of events. Honestly? I think you should cut back right now. I think now is the time to cut back, and focus purely on 1 or 2 high quality events per year. Get in as many guests as you can, including the big ones, and don't dilute your offering. But focus purely on those two events. Ditch all of the 'secondary' events (Supernatural conventions, and all the rest of it). Just focus on CM, and LFACC, push them hard, and deliver them well, just as you always have.

Don't get me wrong, if a secondary con makes money, stick with it - maybe the Twilight ones are in this category, I don't know. But anything that is 'iffy',or 'debatable', get rid of it. Fall back on your core competencies, and hunker down to weather this economic storm. Because those that are inclined to stick with you, will stick with you, and those that are going to leave anyway, will leave no matter what you do. Right now, there is no growth strategy - there is only survival, and again that is about CORE COMPETENCIES. Stick with what you do well, what consistently makes money.

Back to Location. Stick with London, and maybe MK. People will complain about coming to London. But seriously, when a plane ticket to London from Glasgow is £25, there is no excuse, no excuse, for people not just getting on a plane down to London. And if those people don't want to spend £25 on a plane ticket, you don't want them at the con, because they will not spend anything. The people that will come anyway, will still come.

I would love you to run an event every month, in every county in the country, but we are not in those times, and you're running a business. If you can't survive by running two events in London / MK with quality guests, then bottom line you cannot survive. Get rid of everything else, and boil down and reduce your offering.

That's my view, and no doubt many will disagree - and if I've offended anyone, I'm sorry. But at the end of the day, your balance sheet needs to have a positive number at the end of the year. And right now, focusing on core competencies is the way to do it.

Meanwhile, I will continue to support your events, as I have for the best part of ten years.

All my best,

Mike

I agree mostly with this post.

In my mind, there is a finite amount of attendees, with a finite amount of cash. If you put on 12 shows a year, then there are very few attendees who can do them all. Therefore you automatically dilute your own fan base. I think the attendances figures can probably demonstrate this. It's made worse by the fact that there is increased competition and also a recession (neither of which you can do anything about).

As for guests, I can understand the logic that many events, increase the number of dates, which means that guests have more opportunities to find a weekend when they are available, however, the number of potential guests is finite and again, offering more choices, will dilute the shows. Also, the large number of guest cancellations (and the fact that guests don't want to confirm until the last minute) means that the possibility of a large show like this being cancelled, is greater.

I wouldn't go as far as Mike, in that I think it's possible to support a couple more events, but I would much rather see 1 CM:MK and 1 LFaCC a year, with several headline guests, rather than a half dozen signing shows, each with maybe 1 headline guest. LFCC is the cloest thing the UK has to a San Diego Comic Con and I'd rather see it promoted that way.

As for ME events, well I'm not sure this is the right climate for them. Certainly events like the Twilight ones are worth keeping, because the subject is hot and in demand. Likewise, the Stargate event is viable because of the huge headline act attending. I'm not convinced that the other shows are really viable though and I'd almost rather see the potential guests for those shows at a CM or LFCC.

[1of2]

MikeDonovan, on Feb 1 2011, 01:32 AM, said:

Sure, but my point is nothing to do with the quality of guests - my point is to do with the quality of SM's balance sheet.

I appreciate your point isn't based on guest quality. Others have been making that point though.

[TerraHawk]

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 09:59 AM, said:

And yet I've seen time and again that people are willing to go to signing events and conventions for the (mostly) guaranteed opportunity to get an autograph/photo with someone. It's a completely different situation, and I don't think they can think "oh there's a screening somewhere so we won't bother" because there's often many willing to do both, or that don't WANT to go to things like that.

Screening as in sat down with Q+As, limited photo/auto opps. In the case of Dr Who the likes of Matt and Karen - off limits to other events it seemed. (oh if I lived in London)

I'm not saying there isn't room for both, but if 100 of your potential audience know for £30 they can get so much,  then someone else comes along offering different for £60, those 100 may need a bit more convincing.

I actually think SM are ME's biggest rival. If Gates and LeVar had been annouced for Warp 10, would people have complained?

[DavidB]

I never quite get the SDCC reference. There's so much about that show that is completely different from what Showmasters offer. It's more of a promotional event than anything, surely?

[chrismk]

1of2, on Feb 1 2011, 12:50 AM, said:

Random example. LFCC in July. CM:MK in May. Two events. An huge guest becomes available but only around November and then they will be busy after that for a unknown amount of time. That's your window of opportunity gone.

I get that, but let me add this to the mix:

There are 6 huge guests wanting to do events. 2 can only do May, 2 can only do July, Your guest can only do November and the 6th doesn't care and is available all year.

You run the additional show in November and logically, you put two guests at each. Now, if any guest cancels, the show is in trouble as it is hanging on just one headline guest (and it's the headliners that get the large number of people through the door).

My point it that it's better to run 2 events and just try and book the missing guest in teh next year (and be aware of the fact that in Hollywoodland, availability comes and goes, so it's possible that your 'November only' guest may find themself available in May/July).

Also, as Jason pointed out, guests are becoming available at a lot less notice. If you have fewer events, you can book more guests per event, which makes it easier to add a major guest. Let me alaborate:

You have an event like Roadhouse 2 with no guests. You KNOW that a major guest might be available, but won't know until a month before. The problem being that if you hold out for that guest, no matter how impressive they are, you have already accidentally excluded a large part of the potential attendees, who won't be able to get to the event at that short notice.

[chrismk]

MikeDonovan, on Feb 1 2011, 01:39 AM, said:

18blue78, on Feb 1 2011, 01:37 AM, said:

Kind of surprised how many people are thinking 2 events a year will increase the amount of top guests that attend.

Once again, it will not increase the amount of top guests attending. It will, however, lower SMs risk profile, because they will be focusing on the shows that actually make money.

It will not increase the total amount of headline guests attending in one year (it will probably slightly reduce it, due to availability), however it will likely increase the number of headline guests at any one event.

[malty]

I'd love a con in Manchester again but that's just me being from there

But I love the ME conventions, I found that going to Chevron has been the best decision I've made in a while, it allows me to take a break from 'real life'.

[Grazer]

Whilst I think there are too many events when you combine SM & ME, throughout the year there seems to be something for everyone :)

[TerraHawk]

1of2, on Feb 1 2011, 12:50 AM, said:

Random example. LFCC in July. CM:MK in May. Two events. An huge guest becomes available but only around November and then they will be busy after that for a unknown amount of time. That's your window of opportunity gone.

And they could only be availible Tuesdays. Do we then have a Tuesday event?

Or as Jason said the week before or after an event. Move the event?

Or just evenings. Do you then stay open a few more hours?

What if a mega famous guest has a few spare hours in London, the week your event is in Glasgow?

Incidentally Tenth Planet have run signing events to cater such guests.

Maybe Jason should book the guest, and just have a signing. It would annoy those who can't get there, but they could still sign a lot of photos. And its an opportunity to work your charms on them in person, talk them into coming back at a bigger show later.

[chrismk]

well how am i to know which events will work and which will not ? with out trying to run them ?

That's a valid point, but  would just say that in a time of recession, it's possibly not wise to try too many out.

i had 9 guests to a Being Human event with all but one main cast , were the fans flocked to meet just to main cast my Birmingham Collectormania show , so a full on con with 9 cast for i think it was £60 odd a ticket should have sold out only sold 56 tickets , so how do you know its going to work or not ?

I admit, that was just baffling. I don't know if people mostly wanted to see Aidan, or the rival event had an effect, or whether the BAFTA sponsored promotion had stitched you up (because the Being Human cast did several no/low cost events around the time the show started taking off). Either way, that was really unlucky and I felt for you on that one.

i will also say this year we "are" running less events , but if i start to run less evens do you think that other promotors will also do the same ? no they will run what they think they can run and there will not be any brakes between events so from my point of view i think that i should run the events i think may work and if in time they do work thats great for all the fans , if they do not well its still best to try and not succeed than to have never run Collectotrmaina at all ? think about it ?

I think some other organisers are running slightly less events and their shows are certainly not as well attended as they were say 5 years ago. Mostly, they are in competition with ME and in truth, I think that having a succesful event like that, is down to luck and tapping into a show, just as it's making it big (like you have done with the twilight cons.) At least one of your competitors has stopped running show/film based weekend conventions.

imagen if i had never had nerve to run Collectormaina MK 1
there were 5 promotors that came to this event to watch me fail and fall on my face as everyone knew that a free entry event would never work , as thats just not how events would work, funny that ?

You can see it that way, but I think they came along to see if it would work... I'm sure at least one of them took some tips away from that event! CM 1 is realistically the daddy of UK signing events and in many peoples eyes, it's still the best.

also the first con we ran others promotors and fans said it could not be done the way we did it , no event could be run were you got to do most of the events over the weekend and you had to clash activities over the weekend , well we did it and the people said we could not do it again we try , we sometimes get  it wrong , but we learn and get it right next time .

Yep... and that's why I attended many ME cons and I still prefer the format. The issue for me recently, has been one of guests and reliability.

so i chose to have a go and try to make them work and some times they do other times they may not but we have done some amazing things and we still have dreams for more amazing events .

It's great that you're still innovating, but like one of your rivals has done, maybe you need to let stuff go, to be able to move forward with new stuff?

one last very important thing to talk about , the world is in a very hard place , recession is here and its hard on everything and everyone so for us to find it hard is not a surprise is it , so maybe we do ask for help from the fans of what we do , i do not think thats bad of us i think its smart as we can save wasting money on ads when the fans that like what we do help us to make the money that come is go further and it means we get more guests or have more money to spend on bigger names so i do not feel i should stop asking for help to promote in fact i think we should be asking more and if people like what we do they should help get the word out .

That's fair enough, but the problem is that many of your fans, met friends through your shows and therefore it's quite hard to get the word out beyond a finite group of people. You've used national press for advertising in the past (and I'm sure that played a massive part on the crazy busy Heroes LFCC), but it only really works if you have major, headline guests who are household names (John Barrowman springs to mind). I've said before, but I think facebook advertising is worth investigating as a relatively low cost alternative.

this is what makes us different to other events we are all fans and run by fans and the people that work hard at these events are all fans to , to whats the difference from all of you to all of us .

I have to disagree on this point. I know that you are massive fans and you get as much of a buzz from meeting cool guests as we do.... but I know at least two of your competitors are also massive fanboys (although perhaps without your impressive collections!)

too tall meet his wife in the line at C4 now he looks after the crew and helps us run these events , you the fans are us the promotors in a way , you may not have looked at it this way but i know the crew feel this way as we are all a team and make these event happen as a group , we even spend New Years together partying for 5 days together , so its more than just running events that work or do not work its a group of fans trying something new sometimes , giving it a go

That's great, but it almost implies that you run events, so you can hang out with your extended family. Whilst that's cool (and frankly, if I had the chance, I'd probably do it too), it's not a good reason to run a huge amount of events and it's not financially sustainable.

so we will keep trying and even though its a tuff year we will be here next year and the year after and we will have some amazing events in the future and we may not pull off all that we do , but it will not stop us from trying .

I'm glad you're trying and I have no doubt that there will be some great events in future, but as others have said, I think this is a time to consolidate and grow the existing events, whilst cutting some of the weaker ones (not Glasgow, which is clearly doing ok).

people used to say you cannot get this guest or that guest well we have proven that you can never say that anymore and if you try one day you might just get them so i think we will all keep trying .

Again, that's great, but I think the guests have too much power, if you're creating events for them to attend (which they might cancel anyway), rather than fitting them into existing ones.

this years cancellation is just a one off and i am not just saying this , never have i been out of it for so long because of being assaulted ,and with one of my business partners fathers having a triple hart op and another partners mum having kidney failure all with in 3 months , in a year when we have some of the worst recession figures for 90 years , so if we are not shining as much as we did 3 years ago then i think maybe this has something to do with it ?

Yes, this is the first major signing even which you've had to cancel... and I think it's why a lot of people are shocked/surprised (myself included), but ME have had to cancel a few events now and it's sadly weakening your reputation and (along with other reasons) is changing the way attendees book for events (as it, leaving it late, rather than booking early).

Of course there are unfortunate, external reasons behind it (and I think the recession is probably the most significant factor from a business point of view), but you've been trying to grow in the last few years, whilst others have worked to consolidate.

well there is plenty in this for the few of you that do feel there is to many show to fuel your debate  
thanks for reading

Thanks for taking the time to listen and comment.

++edit++ can't see where I broke the quote, please dear Mods, feel free to correct if you can figure it out!

edited by QS because of broken quotes

Edited by Queen_Sindel, 01 February 2011 - 11:28 AM.

[Queen_Sindel]

Happens all the time when you try to quote more than four things per post, Chris. No one has figured out how to fix it yet. I'll see if I can make it a little more readable.

[chrismk]

DavidB, on Feb 1 2011, 10:43 AM, said:

I never quite get the SDCC reference. There's so much about that show that is completely different from what Showmasters offer. It's more of a promotional event than anything, surely?

I'm guessing that you've never been to SDCC?

It is part promotional, but it is very much more than that and isn't far removed from LFCC.

It has guest panels (like LFCC), a vast dealers room (like LFCC), it has comic writers and artists (like LFCC).

Yes, there is a heavy promotional influence there and I'm sure it's something Jason would love to attract more of, but sadly, transport costs of promotional materials, makes it prohibitive for the studios.

LFCC could become more like SDCC, but it's just finding the right contacts and studios willing to invest. In some ways, it's a shame that Mark Millar didn't come to SM first, before doing his own thing, because LFCC is a good fit for what he wants to achieve.

[Farqhuarbeedlebum]

I've been to all but one of the MK's and LFCC's since I started going to cons in 2005 and having attended con’s in the states I know how good a job SM do. I attended other organisers events in the UK back in 2006 (just to try them out) but had various problems with them and will not be going again (although am now considering a new event just to see what it’s like).
I also took a chance on the Coventry event and the London event last November and enjoyed them, to be honest it never entered my mind that a full signing event could be cancelled, a niche con maybe but not a big event.

My last bit of input into this debate is: run as many events as you want but please ensure that you can run them.
I appreciate (and have sympathy for) the personal and family matters that have gone on in the background but going forward there needs to be some sort of safety net in place. If Jason falls down the stairs (god forbid) and is out of action a month before the con in MK does that mean it could be cancelled as well? I don’t need (or want) to know the organisational structure of SM but I feel all attendees should be confident that if a convention is announced it goes ahead.

As attendees we already have to accept the risk we take of cancelled guests, messed up travel/accommodation and our own personal stuff when planning to attend an event but that should be it…..we should not have to worry about the actual event itself being cancelled.


A quick side note……. looking at accommodation for the MK con there is a difference of £30 per night between a refundable and non-refundable room …..that’s 2-3 autos. For the first time ever this is something I have to consider……..

Edited by Farqhuarbeedlebum, 01 February 2011 - 11:31 AM.

[DavidB]

chrismk, on Feb 1 2011, 11:25 AM, said:

I'm guessing that you've never been to SDCC?

It is part promotional, but it is very much more than that and isn't far removed from LFCC.

It has guest panels (like LFCC), a vast dealers room (like LFCC), it has comic writers and artists (like LFCC).

Yes, there is a heavy promotional influence there and I'm sure it's something Jason would love to attract more of, but sadly, transport costs of promotional materials, makes it prohibitive for the studios.

LFCC could become more like SDCC, but it's just finding the right contacts and studios willing to invest. In some ways, it's a shame that Mark Millar didn't come to SM first, before doing his own thing, because LFCC is a good fit for what he wants to achieve.

It is the logistics I'm referring to - yes I'm aware of the similar elements, but also why they're possible to do on a far bigger scale over there. It's not possible to have full casts of TV and movies attend over here for a panel and a short autograph session. Not on the level that SDCC can do it, and for good reason. At least that's what I believe.

Jason can fly over numerous people to do lengthy autograph sessions, photo shoots, and perhaps a panel, but financially that's far different from what the core of SDCC is.